Ep1 – The Marketing Disruption Edition with Barnaby Wynter

Ep1 – The Marketing Disruption Edition with Barnaby Wynter

James chats with Barnaby Wynter – Marketing Disrupter, Keynote Speaker, Paleontologist, Founder of the Brand Bucket Company, Author, Serial Entrepeneur, Marketing and Rebranding Expert.


In 1999 Barnaby became the youngest Managing Director of a top 200 ad agency, having worked in four leading London ad agencies in client service. Since then he takes nothing for granted. Having launched over 450 brands, he says things change every day. “Almost every rule I learnt has been reconfigured.”


They discuss building schools in Africa, driving old cars across Europe, what makes a great business, value propositions, online vs the high street, service and relationships… as well as what Marks & Spencer will look like in the future.

Contact Barnaby:

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James Nathan: Welcome to The Only One Business Show with me, your host James Nathan.  In the studio today, I’ve got an absolutely fantastic guest who I think you’re going to really enjoy. This gentleman’s a marketing disruptor, a keynote speaker, a palaeontologist, the founder of the Brand Bucket Company, author, serial entrepreneur, marketing and rebranding expert with over 550 brand launches to his name, including some really well known household names. He’s also building a school in Africa.


Welcome to the show Barnaby Wynter…. Barnaby, how are you?


Barnaby Wynter: James, I’m really good and lovely to be with you today.


James Nathan: And where are you today? Are you in Britain or are you away?


Barnaby Wynter  No, I’m in Britain and haven’t been away since since Christmas now. So went and did some work then but no, enjoying the fine weather that we’re receiving at the moment.


James Nathan: I’m really hoping that this sunshine I’m seeing out my window is actually going to stay now. And it’s the end of winter and everything’s going to be better. Which is, which is how we always want it.


A school in Africa Barnaby, What are you doing?


Barnaby Wynter: Yeah, so I’m working with a charity called the Parenta Trust. It’s part of a business I’m involved in. And we have an ambition to build 257 schools in Uganda. We’ve built five, we’ve commissioned the sixth. And I have a thing about the number seven. So I have agreed to entirely fund number seven. So that’s the plan.


James Nathan: That’s fantastic. How you doing that?  How you getting the funding together?


Barnaby Wynter: So part of what I do is I mentor entrepreneurial businesses. And what I do is I charge a nominal fee or just ask for a nominal fee/donation, which then goes straight to the charity funds. So where previously I used to mentor for free. And now just say please make a donation to the charity fund. So that’s certainly one contributor to raising the money.


And the second thing is I’m going on a rally from Maidstone to Monaco, in a car worth more than £350. This is sort of Top Gear type event and going through eight different countries to get there. Including something called the Furka Pass. I think that I’m saying that right. Which is which is I think in Switzerland or somewhere, not even sure where it is, which is a very steep road and narrow road because up and it comes down again.


James Nathan: So have you bought the car and are you ready to go?


Barnaby Wynter: I have bought the car. And it’s now in design because you have to decorate the car in a rather crazy way.


James Nathan: What is it? What have you got, what can you get yourself for £350?


Barnaby Wynter: I’ve managed to get myself a Ford Fiesta with 134,000 miles on the clock. And as a bit of a noise coming from the engine.


James Nathan: Sounds like my first my car.


Barnaby Wynter: It could be my last car!


James Nathan: What a great challenge though. I’ve I’ve seen a few people doing that recently. And I think it’s it’s a fabulous thing. If people want to donate to your cause Barnaby, How can they do that?


Barnaby Wynter: Well, if you go to Just Giving, There’s a, you can find Barnaby Wynter, I think is the is the link. And so if you look up Barnaby Wynter, on Just Giving, what will happen is you’ll you’ll find my page, and then it outlines some facts, I’m raising money for three charities. I work very closely with Guild of Entrepreneurs, which supports entrepreneurial businesses in the city, plus this and also Water Aid. I have a thing about people not having drinking water across all of the world. So there’s there’s three areas to that. But the main focus at the moment is building the school.


James Nathan: Fantastic. Well, I think that’s, that’s incredible of you. I’ll be on that site myself very shortly. But you know, great, great luck with your journey and in the little, little Fiesta as well.


Barnaby, you have you been involved with so many businesses over such a long period of time, and when I say that I don’t mean to be mean, you know, but you’ve seen a quite a range of things over different businesses and different economic cycles. What’s the key to building a great business these days?


Barnaby Wynter: The reality of is it probably hasn’t changed. I think, perhaps the mechanics for doing it has changed. But, I think the key thing is you must have a very powerful value proposition to start with. And what I mean by value proposition is a set of values that, that absolutely capture why people should buy from you how people can buy from you and what they’re going to buy from you. So, I think that’s the really the first cornerstone of any strong business.


You’ve got to have a great value proposition. And people talk about the story, having an idea and all that sort of thing. But actually, the challenge with both of those is that they are they are internal out expressions of what you’re doing, rather than a buyer in expression, which is really what a value proposition is. And you’ve got to create a buyer in value proposition. Otherwise, it doesn’t matter what you’re selling even how good it is, people just won’t get it. So that’s really the first cornerstone.


James Nathan: Okay. And does that does that value proposition start with the business itself and looking at their core values? Or is that something that they should agree, is what they’re pushing out to the market.


Barnaby Wynter: My experience over over the last 30 years has been that there are there are sort of two trains of thought. So lots of marketing industry say, going ask what what customers and clients are looking for, find gaps in the market, all that sort of thing, And base the value proposition on that. I’ve found that to be fundamentally flawed, because the gap might be there for a reason. And often customers don’t really know what they don’t know. So therefore, they can’t really express what they’re looking for. So my view on this is very clear, you have to start with the values inside the business.


James Nathan: Right.


Barnaby Wynter: And, again, you can’t ask people to tell you what those values are, you have to effectively derive them from what they say and then flip them so that they become things that a buyer might like, rather than necessarily want a company thinks it’s good at, which is something entirely different. So the process is to unearth all the values within the within the organisation and then flip them so that they’re actually things are buyers want, rather than what companies want to tell you.


James Nathan: Okay, and so give us an example of a businesses done that very well.


Barnaby Wynter: But most recent brand that I that I’ve helped create this is a thing called Children with Cancer UK. They’re currently running a campaign on TV, which has done extraordinarily well for them. But when I was first introduced to them 18 months ago, they were about to celebrate their 30th year. And nobody really understood what they did as a charity. And although they managed to get themselves up to about 15 million pounds turnover, they’ve done that by employing a really great team who were constantly campaigning and trying to raise money.


Now I went in and said: okay, what is it you actually do, and we flipped them from from being about fighting cancer in children, which is essentially what they core story was, which is what they do.  They’re research charity. And we turned them into keeping families together. Because what actually happens is, if you, and I apologise for anybody for whom this might be a slightly sensitive area, If you discover your child has cancer, it’s possibly the worst thing you can ever discover. But you want help. The only thing you want them to do is to survive, and go on into adulthood, which this charities specialises in. And so we flipped it.


So that actually it’s about keeping families together because you want the children and the parents to stay together and the brothers and the sisters. Now the moment we did that the whole essence behind the team that worked there changed. So culturally it had a major impact on everybody who worked there. Because they weren’t just driven at trying to get money in from lotteries and the events and things like that, it’s now got people coming to them saying, actually, we want support a charity that keeps families together. And so that’s an example of that.


Equally, you could you could talk about Argos. I launched Argos a long time ago.


They used to produce these big, thick catalogues with lots of lots of products in. They used to door drop those. So every home in in the UK had one of these catalogues. And what we did is we reverse that said, Okay, well let’s, let’s set up a campaign where we say this is a great place to come, come and collect your catalogue from an Argos which have been redesigned, and so all the products were on display. So what we did is we reversed it, so actually, buyers came into the store to collect the catalogue. And then they saw all this amazing stuff that Argos did and then that lifted sales as well. So you can do it in any any space, any sector, you just got to reverse the polarity. So that actually what you’re doing is you’re creating something that buyers want to come into, rather than you’re blasting the outside world with your view of what’s great about your business.


James Nathan: It’s amazing how things make absolute sense, when they’re explained to you isn’t it. You know, there’s so many, so many businesses who could learn from those examples, but somehow seem to just bash on a head the way they’ve always done things, you know, Marks and Spencer, for instance. I’m absolutely convinced that by the time my kids are grown up, they’ll think Marks and Spencer’s a food shop. Because of the way it’s going.


Barnaby Wynter: If they survive, you may well be right.


James Nathan: It’ll be interesting to see what happens. And where does service fit within within the value proposition?


Barnaby Wynter: Essentially, every single value that you are offering to people really should be a service. If that makes sense? Because what you’re doing is you’re serving your values to your buyers. So there’s sort of a generic view, in my opinion, that actually everything that you do should be about service. So your whole business, all of your systems and processes should be really designed with service in mind. Now, the context I use for that is I because I’m a brand man, I believe business is about commercialising relationships. Now, of course, a relationship is brought to life by great service, because you’ve got to service the relationship.


To a certain extent, for me the words relationship and services sort of interchangeable. I’m not sure you’d agree with that. But they’re sort of interchangeable because they’re, they’re effectively interactions between a business and people who are engaged with that business.


James Nathan: No, I think I would agree with that. There’s a really great quote from Horst Schulze who was from the Ritz Carlton Group, where he described service and hospitality, and he said that service is a monologue and hospitality is a dialogue. And I think, I think relationships are a dialogue, they are a communication between two people. Service in the greater context is not something that we do to somebody. But we do with somebody and for somebody…


Barnaby Wynter: Absolutely right. I agree with that.


James Nathan: And that makes that makes the whole thing work differently. So uh, yeah, I completely agree with you. And relationships are the key to business aren’t they?


Barnaby Wynter: Yeah. Because that’s essentially what you’re doing. Whether you’re producing a product or a service, What you want to do is you want to sell the relationship with that product and with that service, and do that in a profitable way. So you’ve got yourself a business. So for me, the brand is an expression of commercialised relationships. That’s what you should be doing, and of course when you’re building a business right from scratch, we should be thinking is, what are we building that our buyers are going to love interacting with? And clearly that impacts on on on relationships, service, all of those sorts of things?


James Nathan: And how does that change in the digital economy?


Barnaby Wynter: Well, I think I think we were all getting very excited about the the digital economy. But in reality, it’s just another modus operandi for doing exactly what we should have done in the first place. I think all that the digital economy is done is that it has enabled access to business systems and processes on a much greater scale.


James Nathan: Right.


Barnaby Wynter:  So It’s a scaling tool, rather than it’s a new way of doing things.If you actually think about it, what people are achieving using the digital arena are just more opportunities to service people. So if you look at, if you look at, I mean, I have three daughters, and every other day, there is a delivery from Asos to our house.


James Nathan: Sounds like my place Barnaby and it’s probably just me….


Barnaby Wynter: It might be you, stop getting them delivered to my house!


But they come home from school, they do their homework, and then they go on about 11 o’clock at night. And they they buy something that they want to wear the following evening. But they buy three sets of things. And What happens is they arrive the following day, they try them on, they decided the one they’re going to wear and they send the other two back. Now. Okay, so what’s going on there, that still requires the same logistics, it still requires the same product procurement, and it requires the same stocking, I’d actually probably requires more stopping because you got three items out when they’re only selling one. There’s an exchange mechanic, there’s all of that it’s now being taken for granted.


That was true of Argos 30 years ago, or 20 years ago, it was true Marks and Spencers, it was true of your local shop  on the high street. So I don’t think any of that’s changed. But I think the digital economy has enabled people to access it much more quickly, much more readily. And from the comfort of their own sofa. What has changed, however, it’s because there’s a little lack of human interaction people are Rottweilers for inconsistency in that service.


So the trouble in the digital arena is you spot straight away when it doesn’t work. Whereas if you’re in a shop and it doesn’t work, then the other human being the other side of the counter has time to recover that relationship. Because there is a direct face to face relationship “terribly sorry I’ve brought you the wrong item. Just bear with me for 60 seconds, I’ll go and get the right one.” Yeah, and you stand there and you’re looking around the shop. Whereas on the in the online arena something you wait for something that gets delivered, it’s the wrong item, you just get a bit peed off. So I think the digital arena lacks that extra dimension of humanity, which you really need to build into the digital economy service.


James Nathan: It’s interesting looking at that, because I think there are a number of businesses who are very worried about how that works, and trying very hard to humanise the interaction so that if you do receive the wrong thing, that their response rates are better, quicker, in your own language, all that kind of stuff. I know from my many, many interactions with the Amazon business, they have got to the point now where they just taken us to returns you don’t even need to print a label. They’re trying to kind of reduce the friction, I guess, in those transactions. But you’re quite right.


I remember my Auntie living up in Leeds used to go into Marks & Spencer in town, get six different versions of the same pair of trousers to take home, her husband would try them all on and then she’d take back the five that didn’t fit. It’s not a different thing. It’s just a different way, I guess, but also that ability to buy at night. I wonder whether and I’m sure there’s some statistics about this. But I wonder whether the transaction rates in the evening a higher, where people are more relaxed, perhaps they’re, you know, sitting on a couch at home. They just think oh, what the hell, I’ve had a hard day let me buy something for myself. Because without actually handing over cash it all happens much more simply.


Barnaby Wynter: I think that’s absolutely right. And I think therefore the nature of the decision making process may have changed slightly in terms of the conveniences now is now rated more highly than perhaps it was previously. But the excitement of going to the shops on a Saturday and, you know, going through the hustle and bustle of high street that had its own dimension as well. And I think people are missing that and, and you know that society is changing in such a way that you know, we’re becoming more isolated rather than where the communities is working. So I think there’s some real challenges there.


James Nathan: You touched on something there that’s really interesting, because people talk about the death of the high street. And I’m not sure whether it’s true or not, I think that there’s there are a number of businesses that are… like in all economy, economic cycles, businesses come and go. And for some of us, you know, there was a mourning of Woolworths brand, but actually for others it was an irrelevance. And actually would be better off, replaced with something that serves better. I think if you’re going to have people come through a door, you’ve got to really look at how you look after those people and how you interact with them. And that actually service and relationships, the build of relationships in those environments is going to become more and more important. Do you see that changing further? How do you see that?


Barnaby Wynter: I think if the high street were a brand, I’d be asking it to fundamentally change his view on the world.


I think retailers who are operating on the high street are completely missing the point of the high street now. Because what’s happened is they use their retail environments as simply displays, where you can pick up a product and go to a counter and buy it. And I can do that online. So what’s happened is the online arena is effectively replaced what the high street used to do, because it’d be the only place you could do that. And instead of saying, Okay, we’ve got an opportunity to change the way the high street works, and reconfigure the way we do things. They’ve just sort of vigorously carried on in the hope that actually the internet will go away. And it’s complete madness.

I mentor a young gentleman and his wife has got a phenomenal bookshop in the East End of London in a little pedestrian walkway, there’s about 30 shops. But what she’s done is she’s made it the centre of the community. So she’s got a she’s got a licence to sell alcohol in a bookshop. So she has coffee and alcohol in her bookshop. She has all the books on display, she’s set up the bookshop with all tables and chairs, and you can go in there, pull the book down off the shelf and read it, buy a drink, have a coffee. She runs coffee mornings in there for mums with young children, She does book reading sessions in the evening. And what she’s done is she’s become a centre point of that local community.


Now imagine, James, you went to a high street where every retail environment was somewhere where you could go in and you could learn how to use your computer better. And you could learn how to use your, your camera better. And you could find out about how to draw and you could and it sort of becomes a University of amazing stuff that you can learn and enhance your life with. But at the same time, you then say well, while I’m here, I might as well buy that product, might as well buy that product, might as well do that.


Now imagine that’s what the high street look like, I think it would be fantastic. So I look at the high street and think, guys, you’ve just got this amazing place where people who are living in one up one down houses, staring at a square screen in the corner, would love to come and interact with other people. And share experiences and knowledge and exchange skills and all that sort of thing. If that was what the high street was, I would buy what was in that shop. And I just love that idea. And I think the high street needs to reinvent itself and so become a go to place for experience and service and all that sort of thing. All this stuff, I’m definitely not going to get online, or I’m going to have to do it all on my own.


James Nathan: That sounds absolutely fantastic. I couldn’t think of a place I’d rather be you know, the number of times you walk into a shop or into a store and you’re an inconvenience to those people and be lovely to go in and be welcomed and wanted and encouraged to be a part of the place? That would be the absolute fantastic. Does that build into or add into the value proposition? Or is that about more than that?


Barnaby Wynter: As I said before, the value proposition has to be the foundation stone for all of that. For me a value proposition has has four sets of values in, the first set of values is your behavioural style. So in other words, social style of doing business because we buy from people we like who are like us. The second set of values is how you benefit people. So what are the benefits you’re creating as a result of your product or your service, And the third set of values, are your beliefs. So what do you want people to believe about the product, about the service that you’re providing. And the final thing is what do you want to be famous for?


They all begin with these, so behaviours benefits, value, and want to be. Now all of those when you start to work through them… If you want to be famous on the high street for a place, a go to place where you can learn everything about, you know, photography, computers, books, writing, whatever, fashion. Imagine you walked into an M&S and they dressed you, they said oh, let’s look at you, let’s do a colour thing on you, these are all the clothes you should wear. These are look really good on you, blah blah blah… that expertise used to be handed down by your mother and your father and stuff in the generations go by… that’s not being passed on anymore.


The retailers know this stuff. So why aren’t they  educating us? Educating us to wear their clothes? And so I think it’s absolutely part of the value proposition if that’s what you believe in, if that’s what your product or service, how it can benefit people and how it can? How can deliver an amazing experience as well through your style?


James Nathan: If you don’t believe it, then I don’t understand how you can go into business without a belief like that, unless you’re in it just to make some money. In which case, you know, you’ll be very short lived.


Barnaby Wynter: That is a characteristic that I found about the professions. I very rarely believe them. So I don’t believe people in the finance industry. I don’t believe people in the legal world. I don’t believe people in the accountancy world. I think they do what they think is right. But I don’t think they believe it.


James Nathan: And why is that?


Barnaby Wynter: Well, because I think they are dealing with regulations and compliance, and social control. And so they personally cannot invest in… So, you know, a good lawyer might defend a murderer, or it  might prosecute a murderer. The law tells them not to believe, law says follow the law, you know, and for accountants, follow the numbers. They might not… you know, you and I have been running businesses for a long time that, you know, you go in and say, yeah, things are going great. And they say well, no actually your numbers don’t say that. I’m selling confidence and passion and belief and all that sort of thing. That’s what I’m selling. And the accountants says, Yeah, but but I’m looking at the numbers, and I can’t see you doing that, you know.


James Nathan: I mean, being an accountant at heart, and still pay my subs for whatever reason, I look at that and think you know, what, it’s just shouldn’t be how it is, there’s opportunity in the professions to become real advisors to business to be facilitators, and I think if you get a you get a good accountant and a good lawyer together, you should be able to build a really great business.


Barnaby Wynter: Yes.


James Nathan: But I think you’re right, they’re too worried about, you know, all the negatives? And I guess you’re taught that way?


Barnaby Wynter: Absolutely, no, it’s not, it’s not their fault. Anyway, you were gonna say….


James Nathan: There is opportunity there, that’s for sure. What I was gonna say before is that you and I chatted before about value in business and, and how that sits within service. And I know you’ve got a very clear view on ease of use and convenience. What do you think is more most important? Is it is it the ability to or the ease of working with somebody? Or is the value more important?


Barnaby Wynter: Yeah, so I searched long and hard for a great formula for value. And there’s a gentleman called Hewitt who wrote a great formula for value a long time ago, which was then used the Harvard Business Review, and other people have taken it off. And for me, the formula for value is , and it’s it is a true formula. So you kinda of have to imagine this: value equals, and then there’s a line which divides the two formulas. So value equals product quality plus service quality, divided by, a line underneath, price paid plus ease. And if you’re in the manufacturing industry, people tend to err towards, it’s all about the product quality and the price paid. So it’s all about doing deals, and getting volume and all that sort of stuff.


But actually, the perception of value, and I think Gallup have done a big piece of research on this, the perception of value is all about service quality, divided by ease of doing business. And actually, product quality is much less relevant today. Because we know there’s lots of choice. And actually, the chances are everybody’s about there, or there abouts with the product quality. So you know, yes, there might be…. and in terms of price paid, people don’t mind paying a little bit more, if the service is great. And getting it is really easy.


And if you look at the brands that have emerged in the last 5 or 10 years, whether it’s starting with the Ubers , and the Expedias, and the Amazons, the eBays, they’re all about service quality and ease of doing business. And they’re going gangbusters at the moment, you know, they ebb and flow as businesses, but that’s because they’re delivering what people want. They want the great service, and they want it to be easy to do. And actually, they don’t mind paying a little bit more, and they’re not as much worried about the product…. going to Amazon, there’s thousands of products, you know… Now of course, the reason why I don’t need to worry about it, because if it arrives and it’s not very good, I just, as you said stick a label on it, I just put it back in the bag and put take it to the post office and it goes back and I get my money back.


So you kind of instinctively know that who would run a business it would risk sending out rubbish product so it keeps getting sent back, they’d be out of business in no time. So generally the stuff that arrives is broadly as its described. So the product quality and the price paid is sort of diminished. And the Gallup research says you know it’s only 15% of people’s belief of value, values driven by service quality and need to do business And I really like that formula. I think that fits with how I see the world.


James Nathan: I think it makes lots and lots of sense doesn’t it.  There’s some real truth even even on the high street, if you look at people you know, brands like John Lewis and their Waitrose brand. You know people understand that Waitrose is more expensive or they believe it’s more expensive, the reality actually is it is not. My theory with Waitrose is really simple. I go in there and I go to buy a loaf of bread, well a  loaf of bread cost the same in Waitresses does in Tesco, Sainsbury’s and everywhere else. The problem is that they surround the bread with other nice things, which I then buy. And my shopping trolley basket goes up and up and up. But there is certainly a perception that you’re paying a little but more but you get a little bit more.


Barnaby Wynter: Yeah, I think there’s something else going on there of course. Sainsbury’s and Tesco use a marketing strategy which is led by KVIs is known value items. So what you’ll do is you’ll go into a Tesco and Sainsburys and you’ll find a loaf of bread for 50p, because that’s the thing they drawn you into the shop so you spend money elsewhere. Whereas I think you’ll find that brands like like Waitrose and Marks & Spencers don’t do that as readily. And they don’t use the KVI strategy to bring people in.


James Nathan: The sort of loss leader thing….


Barnaby Wynter: Exactly that, yeah, exactly that. So I think there can be a price perception that is cheaper to buy the staple goods in the big supermarkets than in the likes of Waitrose. But you’re absolutely right. You don’t just buy bread, you buy other stuff as well, there’s all on a par, isn’t it? 


James Nathan: Well, in reality, no one’s going to drive from one place to another unless you’ve got a lot of time on their hands, you know, to go and buy your milk, bread and other staples at one place and then go and buy the other bits and pieces at another isn’t necessarily the way forward. But what I am really interested in I think with that is the is the rise of the online brands. And how they, bring the shopping experience into a home. I think Ocado I’ve done a very good job of that. But what’s interesting with them is that they have now removed Waitrose as their chief supplier and is swapping that to Marks and Spencer. It’ll be quite interesting to see how that that works.


Barnaby Wynter: Yes. Well, I think Waitrose is still probably beyond the mass market. Whereas Marks and Spencer cleverly moved into that. And so you see them at railway stations and in petrol stations and things like that. So quite an interesting strategy that, to move away from the big store so people kind of see them more as a normality whereas Waitrose is probably still a little bit of a special place to go.


James Nathan: Very true. Maybe my my theory on Marks and Spencers is wrong, maybe Marks & Spencers will be seen by my children as a convenience store in a petrol station.


Barnaby Wynter: Well, I think that’s absolutely right. I think it’s more likely more likely.


James Nathan: Only time will tell… Barnaby it’s been absolutely lovely chatting with you and I could go on and on it’s a fascinating area to to talk around. What I would love is people to be able to get in touch with you if they’d like to do that. What’s the best way for them to get hold of you?


Barnaby Wynter: Probably the best way is to visit by my website, www.barnabywynter.com. And that’s Wynter with a Y… just to be awkward. There’s a long family story to that involving alcohol, I believe, but I won’t, I won’t tell that now. But yeah, so go there. There’s a form at the bottom that can you can email, probably the best way. You could look me up on LinkedIn. And if you just type my name into into Google you’ll see there’s plenty of bits and pieces on that as well. I’m not too difficult to find.


James Nathan: Well, I think if you know anybody who’s substituted a letter in their name to make it easier for them to find online. I think it was very clever of your family regardless of how it happened in the first place. And what’s the what’s the link for your Just Giving…


Barnaby Wynter: So James, the link to my page is www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/barnaby-wynter.


James Nathan: Some fantastic charities there as well so people can try they pick and how they support you but I’d love it if they did. And one last thing before we wrap up Barnaby, what’s the one thing what’s the Golden Nugget you likely people to leave with to make their businesses better today?


Barnaby Wynter: I think you must always put the buyer first, when you’re designing anything in your business, so when you’re designing your systems and processes, walk in your customers shoes.


James Nathan: Fantastic. Thank you Barnaby. It’s been great chatting with you. Have a fantastic day and look forward to seeing you soon.


Barnaby Wynter: Thank you very much.



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