Ep12 – The Industry Hub and Recruitment Tech Edition with Louise Triance

Ep12 – The Industry Hub and Recruitment Tech Edition with Louise Triance

James chats with Louise Triance, industry hub, recruitment industry fixer, host of recruitment events and technology showcases as well as a trained psychometric assessor.


Louise created and runs the UK Recruiter knowledge network, the most comprehensive set of information, services and links to all in the UK recruitment industry.


Over the past 20 years she has hosted over 100 events for recruiters, blogged regularly for more than 10 years and published in excess of 750 weekly newsletters to an organically grown network of 30,000+ recruitment professionals.


They discuss the changing use of technology in the recruitment industry, automation, chat-bots, service, choice and social proof, as well as CSR and its role in building better recruitment businesses.


Contact Louise


Email: louise@ukrecruiter.co.uk
Facebook: www.facebook.com/louise.triance
Twitter: twitter.com/louisetriance
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/louisetriance/
UK Recruiter:  ukrecruiter.co.uk
Recruiter Zone:  recruiter.zone/

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James Nathan: 00:53 Hello and welcome to The Only One Business Show with me, your host, James Nathan. Today I have an industry hub from the recruitment industry to talk to and I think you’re going to really enjoy this conversation. She’s the host of many recruitment events and technology showcases as well as a trained psychometric assessor. She’s created and run the UK Recruiter knowledge network, which was established back before recruitment, networking even existed. The network is the most comprehensive set of information services and links to all the UKs recruitment industry over the past 20 years. She’s hosted over a hundred events for recruiters, blogged regularly for more than 10 years and published in excess of 750 weekly newsletters to an organic grown network of over 30,000 recruitment professionals. That is gigantic. Please welcome Louise Triance. Louise, hi, how are you?


Louise Triance: 01:48 Hello, I’m great, thank you. That’s made me sound quite impressive. I enjoyed that.


James Nathan: 01:53 I always love it when people read my intro and I think wow, I can polish my nails now…


Louise Triance: 01:58 Yeah, that’s great. We can end now.


James Nathan: 02:02 Well, could we talk a bit longer please? It might make for a very boring podcast, but it’s lovely to have you on. I know you’re super busy and it’s great to grab some of your time. What are you up to at the moment Louise? What events have you got going on and what’s happening with UK recruiter?


Louise Triance: 02:16 So always seem to be working on events. You mentioned the technology showcase, so this is our seventh maybe eighth year of running that, so that’s in June. Working on that. Then we’ve got our usual directors events that we’ve been doing for years and we’ve got some new ones, which we’ll maybe we’ll talk about a bit later, but which are evening events, which we call Inspire Recruitment. Some we’re working on those whilst also newsletter blogging and just the general everyday stuff of running a community site.


James Nathan: 02:48 Fantastic. For those of you who are new to the recruitment industry, UK Recruiter is kind of the place to find anything really as well as some fabulous blog posts and, and a really good sort of up to date information about what’s going on the recruitment, well cause it changes super fast, doesn’t it?


Louise Triance: 03:06 Yeah, I mean I think that there’s obviously some core elements of what we do, which are very standard, but the recruitment marketplace and they’re the sort of, when you’re inside that as an agency recruiter or a corporate recruiter, it’s quite nice to be able to communicate with other people in that space and experts in that space. And that’s what we’ve tried to build is that community site, I guess an old fashioned trade publication online.


James Nathan: 03:32 Okay. Have you found that the readership has changed over time?


Louise Triance: 03:38 I guess it’s the job titles of people certainly have. And I think that probably when we started out….. So when I first started out, we were training agency recruiters on techniques for using the Internet to recruit. And this was really, really early days. So we had quite a large agency, recruitment agency following and over time that’s broadened and into that corporate recruiter. But I also think that there’s lots of different parts of recruitment now. So there’s people who are doing Internet sourcing and then there’s the people who are talent acquisition within corporate firms. I don’t think that was a job title that existed when I first started doing this 20 years ago. People were still being called personnel officers, but back when I started. So I guess that the roles have definitely expanded and diversified in that space. I’m not sure whether the average job seeker would notice that particularly, or even a hiring manager in an organization because it is within our own recruitment space. I think that we’ve seen that the most.


James Nathan: 04:49 It’s interesting when you talk about sort of job titles and the roles that existed, I look at my kids who are 10 and 12 now and wonder, you know, what it is they might do when they’re older. And you kind of think of traditional stuff like, you know, whatever it might be, architect, whatever it might be. But actually, some of those roles, particularly the Internet stuff, I mean, I sound like a fossil when I talk these days. Cause when I started in recruitment back in 1996 you know, we had green screens and we didn’t have the internet and you know, it was a different kind of thing. The skills were very basic, but I don’t think those are changed much. But access to information and access to well, identifying people and that the sort of, the mapping stuff that we used to be very, very complicated is now it’s complicated in a different way. And there’s roles for people to do just those parts of the business.


Louise Triance: 05:44 Yeah. No, absolutely. And I will say when I first started in recruitment, we had dumb terminals. So we were just connected internally within our own business. Lots of people didn’t have their own mobile phone. We had a, god I’m going to sound ancient, but we had the brick, the massive, great brick that somebody took on a business development meeting with them.


James Nathan: 06:07 Do you know, I remember having a conversation with my boss, he had a car phone and he said, I don’t need anything else cause I’m either in my car with a client or in the office. You can always contact me in the right times. But yeah, the technology has changed a lot and it’s a, it’s an interesting conversation to have because you obviously have the showcases as well around recruitment technology. Some of it is awesome. Some of it I think is not, I remember looking back at email, I think you, wow, I can send a CV directly to a client while I’m talking to them and we can discuss it there and then, you know, and now emails become the thing I battle with the most when I’m working with my clients. But some of the technology or technological changes are awesome. What do you think is the good and bad of recruitment technology?


Louise Triance: 06:55 Well, I guess I think most of the technology is great. It’s just the application of it. So most of the technology which is around that in the recruitment space could be used. It’s whether you should use it in the business that you have. And so one of the things we do with our tech showcases is that we talk about the application of that tool. And then I typically would ask people what questions should potential clients be asking you? And that’s around how it fits in with their process. So I guess that what, what you don’t want to do is keep seeing something new and shiny and exciting and trying to cram it into the way in which you operate. You have to look at, I guess we should always be looking at our processes and we should be thinking about whether we should do things differently and we should be evolving.


Louise Triance: 07:47 But essentially a decent recruitment business, we’ll have a good process. They would have a way which the operate with clients and a way they’ll operate with candidates and they’re looking for technology that supports that. They’re not saying, oh, Instagram, now how can we fit that in my, let’s change everything we do so that we can put photos of our candidates on Instagram. And that would, obviously it would be a fairly unrealistic thing to do. But I think that’s the risk with technology is that other people are saying to you, you know, you’ve got to use this chat bot. And so you’re trying to find a way to get that chat bot into your process and maybe your process doesn’t need a chat bot.


James Nathan: 08:25 I like what you’ve just said there because it’s…. I talk about chatbots a lot actually, and anything automated, I find that a lot of people are very keen to automate a number of things. From a service perspective, which is obviously something I love to chat around. It has very big positives and very big negatives depending on who’s accessing you. Some people don’t want a chat bot, they want to speak to you, in other industries chatbots are really great, you know, if you want to query something on Amazon while you’re working away on something else, a chat bot can be really handy. But when it’s a personal thing like moving jobs or, you know, a very important decision, a business decision, like hiring somebody just knocking through a chat bot can’t always help or can’t always be the the right way to do it. But I do see lots of businesses trying to do it that way.


Louise Triance: 09:20 Yeah, no, I think you’re right. And I think that chat bots and automation has a really big part to play in the future of the recruitment industry. It’s just about using it right. And you just said something about the service element which I know is what you talk about on quite a lot of these shows. But if you’re looking at something like the future of service within the recruitment space, then automation, technology and robots has to be a part of that.


James Nathan: 09:50 I agree. It has to be a part of it. I just think it needs to be a part of it sensitively. And some of the technologies that are emerging are, I don’t know, I look at them and think, you know, what are they going to be like in 10 years when they’re good? When they’re better, you know, it’s like electric cars, they’re pretty cool, but in 10 years time they’re going to be very cool. Chatbots, AI, all those other things within recruitment can help enormously. Yeah. If you think back to some of the simple stuff which is, which is part and parcel of almost every CRM system these days like CV parsing, you know, it used to be something that you paid a lot of money for and got all excited about. Now it actually works quite well and the information comes through into database quickly and it’s all, it’s all very cool.


Louise Triance: 10:35 I was going to say something about the parsing actually, cause you’ve just touched on something which was ties in exactly what you said about when it’s done right. So pausing technology has been around for 20 years. There’s a company who are coming to our tech event who would do parsing right before hardly anybody else was. And they were doing it too early and we couldn’t work out quite what to do with it because the other parts of the puzzle weren’t there. So it’s like you were saying with electric cars when it’s done right, when the rest of the puzzle is in place, and that’s exactly what’s happened with parsing is now it’s everyone’s parsing everything that you need. When I was first working for a recruitment company, the secretaries were retyping cvs. They were typing the entire CV out from something which was faxed through to us or delivered in the post. Now it’s obviously all sent by email and it’s automatically parsed into your CRM. And if you want to reformat it you can do it. So James, what you’ve just said is exactly right when we will catch up with some stuff it will be great. Or when the other parts of the puzzle are in place, that’s when it will work.


James Nathan: 11:42 Oh, you know, you just triggered my memory of sitting with a stack of cvs and coding them onto the system and then sending them to my, well actually sending them, turning around and putting them on my secretaries in tray for her to type up. And actually what there’s one, one important kick from that, which I really love, is that a lot of the secretarial kind of pool, of the admin side of recruitment, those people were extremely great members of the teams and wasted a lot of their time typing CVs where now, you know, their role has changed significantly, or their other roles either disappeared or changed significantly into, you know, higher skilled, more and more interesting. All of that. All that’s very good. And I think CV parsing, for those who don’t understand what we’re talking about, CV parsing is where the CV comes through the internet on email, which is how they’re delivered.


James Nathan: 12:36 And then to take the information off that CV and put it into a database so it’s searchable and useful for a recruiter. Parsing is a thing that automatically does that for you. Where in the old days you used to have to add the coding in yourself. So it’s just an admin treat really for people. But then it’s like, you know, telling my kids, you know, when I was young, I had to go to a record shop to buy a record and they look at me as if I was absolutely mental. You know, it’s the same kind of thing. When we talk about service in recruitment, is it getting better? Is it improving or is it getting worse?


Louise Triance: 13:16 Is it getting better? It should be getting better. I think that there’s a lot of people who recognize that within the recruitment space, service is really, really important. Now probably more so than it has been in the past. The reason for that is firstly, it’s a candidate market. So broadly speaking, companies find it more difficult to get candidates than job seekers find it to get jobs. So if you’re hiring manager, it is going to be more challenging to fill a role than perhaps it was previously. So that isn’t just about recruitment specifically. It’s just that people who’ve got more choices of where they go to work and where they go to shop and everything else. So I think it’s a, it’s a consumer market. It’s a candidate market.


Louise Triance: 14:06 The second thing which affects why service is so important in recruitment space is about transparency. And again, that’s not even recruitment specific. So if you’re providing a poor service it’s much easier for word to get out. So that’s things like Google reviews things on Twitter, in recruitment, it’s a site like Glassdoor where you can leave reviews and when people do leave feedback on terrible interviews, poor recruitment practices, and obviously in a more positive sense, it’s also very visible. So people will leave things like LinkedIn testimonials you know, you can have a load of really positive stuff on Instagram again. So I think that that transparency and the fact that it’s more difficult to find the right people means that service is more important in their recruitment space now than it’s ever been. I think that companies are much more capable of finding where the, where they do find talent look at almost as capable as agencies in finding that talent, so for recruitment agencies, they have to work harder than perhaps they historically would have had. So I think that that’s why it’s very important and I think that that is going to lead to some changes, which is around some of this robotic stuff we’ve touched on. But broadly speaking, would I say the service in the recruitment space is better? Possibly not. I think there’s always going to be people who talk about cowboy recruiters and poor recruitment practices they’ve suffered from. I think that’s always going to be the case, isn’t it?


James Nathan: 15:43 Oh, absolutely. Every industry has it’s good and it’s bad and it has its rising stars and it has it’s cowboys. Unfortunately I think recruitment is tarnished with a brush, which is, you know, more than 20 years old, which is that, you know, it’s a sales business and often recruiters are seen as people who are just out to make a buck out of you. The very best obviously are not, and when I say very best, it doesn’t matter what level or what industry, the people who provide an excellent service, who really understand their clients and candidates who take the time to help as much as possible in the process. They will always, you know, make bigger and better businesses because of that personal touch regardless of how things are automated underneath is what we look for. It’s a relationship business, isn’t it recruitment? I don’t think it’s ever been any different. I just think that at times people come in and out of it quickly and sometimes you know, we lose good people. The last big recession was a real shame for the recruitment industry because I think a lot of very good people left through no fault of their own. They just had to earn a living like we all do. Until that lottery win comes through, it’s back to work every day. And equally, if there’s no work there, you have to do something.


Louise Triance: 17:08 No, I think you’re right.


James Nathan: 17:10 Is there going to be a change going forward though in terms of how we access the market, how people find jobs?


Louise Triance: 17:21 I don’t know. I wonder if I’m maybe talking about the the automation a bit too much, but I do think that in the recruitment space…. so for recruitment individuals, there’s a bit of a fear that the robots are coming and they’re going to steal their jobs. And I think that probably in other areas of industry it’s the same, you know, if you work for business like Amazon, you’re probably quite concerned that you won’t be packing and picking and delivering for much longer. I think recruitment’s the same. But I think it’s probably got quite a positive impact within the recruitment space. So we’re looking at things like chat bots. Which we have mentioned. Screening tools, things which can do automated phone interviews even face to face interviews with an actual physical robot that’s a technology which has been recently showcased in an event in Lisbon. So I think that that what we’re seeing is that recruiters are going to need to excel at the human part of the job, which is what you just touch them and to go and to continue to provide value as either as an agency recruiter with an in house team. And I think that the human parts of the process will need to be a really high standard for the job seeker and for the hiring manager. So I do see those changes coming.


James Nathan: 18:42 When I see that technology of use, particularly the interviewing thing, I’ve sort of been looking online at some of that recently. It fills me with dread. It really does. But then I don’t want to be Alan Sugar saying the iPod or never happened or never work. No one will ever want one because you never really know. I think there’s industries where that kind of robotic stuff has been trialed a lot, particularly in medicine where, you know, for triaging and all that kind of thing. It has its moments, but it tends to be a very yes and no kind of affair. I’m hoping that with technology changing it gets better, but I still don’t believe that it’s going to be the answer. It might be for very technical staff, you know, can you turn up and can you pick and pack tomorrow? That kind of stuff. But with much more technically difficult roles. I wonder, I wonder, but then I don’t want to be, I don’t look back on this conversation in five years. I’d be thinking you’re a bloody idiot, Nathan. What were you saying? Who knows what it’s what it’s gonna look like.


Louise Triance: 19:51 And I agree. I don’t think we do know. I heard someone’s, I wish I could remember who said this, cause it is so, so true. They said that none of these technologies will be utilized fully in the recruitment or the hospitality or whatever space until they’re main stream. So once they are mainstream, then there’ll be used in things like this. So virtual reality, you can use virtual reality in recruitment. So if you imagined that, I saw this used perfectly as a mining job, the job where you’re down a mine, you’re delivering stuff in a truck and it’s very hot, it’s very dark, it’s very dusty and people can’t envisage what that job is like and their staff turnover is horrific. So this was maybe three years ago, I saw this virtual reality. So you put the headset on and you’re in the mine and you can sense the claustrophobia and you can feel the movement of the vehicle.


Louise Triance: 20:42 And I could see that’s great because people can get a sense of what that’s going to be like. And that’s absolute brilliant. Virtual reality is not mainstream, but chatbots will become mainstream. We are using chat bots all the time to ask questions. So I think that will become a thing in recruitment which will serve a use. So if you’re applying for a job and you just want to know what the salary is like how many people in the office is it dressed down Friday? You can ask the Chat Bot that and it will, it will either move you through the process or you would de-select yourself on the right criteria. So that will be more mainstream and we will use that and some people will love it, some people will hate it. But broadly speaking, I think it will provide us a useful function. And you might not like the idea of robots, but once you see a robot behind the front desk in every Hilton hotel checking you in, we’ll be using them in recruitment too.


James Nathan: 21:42 I just, you know, I had a flash back to my old auntie. who refused to use the hole in the wall to get cash out cause it was totally impersonal. And I love what you’ve said there about it. You know, when things become mainstream you know, we were at a dinner party this week and someone was saying, did you ever envisage a day where spending a thousand pounds on a mobile phone would be seen as normal. You know, and it does, it does change very quickly. We’ve talked a little bit about, you know, the changes in service, which we should businesses are you, you come across a lot of recruitment businesses obviously. And a lot of businesses who served the recruitment industry who were the guys who are really doing things differently and shaking things up at the moment.


Louise Triance: 22:29 Well I probably by not mentioning any names cause some of the ones I’ve seen have been from some judging I’ve recently done for the global recruiter awards. So one of the categories I’ve judged for that is best specialist recruitment business. And what’s fascinated me about that is how service is much broader than just how you interact with clients and candidates. So the criteria upon which these were judged where so relationship with clients, relationship with candidates, relationship with the community you serve, so that’s the industry or the sector that you serve. The service you give internally through mentorship and things like that. And then the CSR bit, the corporate social responsibility. So I think that businesses of being judged for their service. Certainly in this, in this particular instance, much more broadly than do you give candidates feedback, do you brief clients properly?


Louise Triance: 23:29 And it was really great to see some businesses who were ticking all those boxes. Some weren’t, some were giving examples of really good process they have with the candidate and maybe how they also have those candidates training or some of the different things they were doing, but they weren’t doing anything for the wider community. So they weren’t hosting meetups or judging awards. You know, if you’re a recruiter in the pharmaceutical space, if you can get on a judging panel for some pharmaceutical awards, then you really know your space and you’re actually providing a service in that space. If you can organize meetups for tech people in Slough, then that’s really quite impressive, that’s I think more about where service is going than just remembering to, to give feedback to a candidate.


James Nathan: 24:31 So for any recruiters listening, cause I couldn’t agree with Louise more about these things…. when I was when I was a consultant we had to do seminars and things and there was a shared jewel and a lot of people saw that as a real chore. Oh God, we’ve got to go to a seminar, we’ve got to go and stand up and drink with these people. You know, where some of us looked at that and thought this is a great opportunity. These meetups, this stuff is very, very good for networking. It’s great for relationship building. It’s fabulous for…. there’s no downside to it. And the CSR aspects you just mentioned is quite interesting because a lot of businesses are getting very, very… are moving quicker at understanding that actually not only have they got a social responsibility as a business, but that candidates want to work for businesses who do good things.


Louise Triance: 25:26 Yeah. Yeah. And I think that it’s, again, back to transparency and visibility, it’s just so much more visible. So I like to think that people do stuff altruistically, it certainly is how I operate, but I do understand that as a business you have to do things commercially. And if the two things can come together and you can get it, but a good PR off the back of it, then you should be all over that.


James Nathan: 25:52 Absolutely. And it’s always, I mean, I have a charity on my website. Lots of people do. You know, the reason that I like the charities, I have a personal connection. And that’s always better. And lots of people look for that. And you know, we talk a lot about authenticity in business. There’s nothing authentic about putting Cancer Research UK on your website cause you think it looks good for candidates. But there’s a lot of good that businesses can do. What can recruitment businesses do to improve the view of them in the industry? Because some businesses are seen as, you know, great places, other p other businesses are not they, might have old reputation or whatever it might be. What should they be doing to improve their public offering or the, the view of them in the public domain.


Louise Triance: 26:49 I guess there’s a an intrinsic problem here, which is the, as you know, no matter what each of us individually do, there’ll be some businesses who don’t care at all. So collectively we probably can’t change the the view, and I know some people disagree with me and there are the governing bodies for the recruitment space who work really, really hard. And there are other clubs who do try to bring the best recruiters together, but there are still going to be, maybe I shouldn’t slag off estate agents, but they do have a similar reputation. And I guess that collectively they work as hard as they can, but that stereotypes didn’t exist for a reason. And I think that recruitment businesses….. It’s nice to be part of a larger community, which is what I like with what we’re doing.


Louise Triance: 27:34 And it’s great to support something like an industry body and to put your voice behind change. So I think that’s the first thing is even though I don’t think we can completely stamp out and eradicate this negativity around the recruitment space, being part of something bigger and actually standing up for yourselves and showcasing what you do I think is really important. But I just think holding yourself to a high standard and thinking about this stuff and remembering what services about so doing stuff that the job seeker or the hiring manager can’t do themselves to a standard that delights them or the very least makes all parties happy. And it’s not rocket science to work out what that is. You actually don’t need a chat bot to provide good service. It’s just about considering what good service looks like. And it isn’t complicated.


James Nathan: 28:28 The recruitment world is a very simple place. You find somebody, you introduce them to somebody else, they liked each other. They decide that it’s gonna work for both of them and off they go hand in hand and it’s all wonderful. At a very simple level it’s a basic thing. Obviously there’s lots of complexity that falls on top, but in my mind I think, you know, all you really need to give great service in recruitment is a telephone and a load of effort. And if you can put in the effort, if you do things for people, if you do things for people that they will appreciate and are useful to them and provide them with that terrible word value and you’re easy to work with, then you’ll have a good business. If you stop worrying about what other people do and just try to make some money for yourself, you’ll go out of business pretty quickly.


Louise Triance: 29:22 No, I think the only other thing you need was, well there’s probably a load of other things, one of the things you need is honesty. So being honest with what you can achieve for somebody. And I think that can be something of a problem in the recruitment space is that over promising? Because we’re chasing fees. So implying to a client that you understand their market when you don’t, implying to account that, that you’re working, you know, specifically for that client when perhaps you’re not retained by them. And I think that does a disservice. And I think that that’s maybe not done in a particularly malicious way, but that is one of the reasons why we have the poor reputation is that we’re just not being honest about what we can achieve and what our relationships are. And then you’re going to let people down.


James Nathan: 30:08 There’s another side of that isn’t there as well because obviously there’s the money which influences people’s decisions and, yes, they can, you know, fake it before you make it kind of mentality. But also I think when I’m talking to less experienced consultants or people who are new to the industry, they don’t want to look like the new person. They don’t want to look like they don’t understand. And so quite often they will, instead of just saying, look, can I come back to you or could I need to ask somebody else. They kind of show, oh no, no, I understand. And, that can be quite damaging.


Louise Triance: 30:42 Yeah, do know you, it’s has a really good point is it’s very easy for me to say, to be honest, cause 20 years in, I can be really, really honest and I don’t feel embarrassed at saying I have not a clue what you’re talking about.


James Nathan: 30:55 Yeah. That’s not my thing. I’ll go and find somebody who is.


Louise Triance: 30:57 Yeah. But, maybe 20 years ago I would’ve been just as bad as that and I probably would have been the person pretending that I knew what a C++ Java whatnot was just because I’d wanted to get that fee. So yeah, perhaps I’m not the best person to give that advice.


James Nathan: 31:14 We can all look back at our past and think, I wish I’d done that differently. I mean, I remember I came out of accountancy as a Chartered Accountant. So in everyone’s mind, I knew accountancy. I didn’t have a clue what people did in house. I didn’t have the foggiest what a management accountant did. And I had to learn like everybody else. So I learnt by interviewing a hell of a lot of management accountants and asking them what they did. It was my way around it. But but I just want to hit back to something you said about, you know, if we all do it or if we all do things better, it won’t necessarily change the whole industry. As long as we change our part of the industry, as long as we produce the best businesses we can, as long as we look at what we do and try to do it better than the last time, we will be more successful.


Louise Triance: 32:00 Yeah, I do. I do believe that. I guess that what I’m saying is that there were dodgy cowboys recruiting 29 years ago, 30 years ago when I first started in the recruitment space. There still will be when I leave. But yes, you’re absolutely right. I mean, God, you still have to do something. You should always do it and you should always try to be better than you are. Absolutely.


James Nathan: 32:26 There are… when you mentioned those people. Some of them are still around, happily a lot of them are retired, although I was talking about an old boss of mine who doesn’t fit into that category and is actually a really lovely guy who now most of his time flying helicopters about the place. And I think I wish I’d be there at the right time? Louise it’s been really lovely chatting with you. There is a whole world of stuff we could continue to discuss, but I’m also really conscious of time as well. I’d love for you to just give us your one nugget, your one thing that you’d like people to take away. Think about, something that they could do to make their businesses better today and better in the years to come. What would that be?


Louise Triance: 33:09 Oh, so I don’t think I have something particularly mind-blowing. And I’m going to have to speak fast to roll two into one because it’s basically a complete cheat. It’s so obvious. Treat others as you expect to be treated yourself and do what you say or do when you say you’ll do it. And that is what I actually live by. And I think if you do that, I meant there is so much more complex stuff out there that you should be doing, but at a very core level, being that person, being that business is absolutely the right thing to do.

James Nathan: 33:50 Two really great things and you know, they are simple, but they’re not done well. And if you do those well, what a great business you’ll have. Louise, thank you so much. It’s been great. Great talking to you.

Louise Triance: 34:02 Oh, I’m with you. I’ve really enjoyed it. Thanks ever so much.



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