Ep20 – The Embracing Change Edition with Pam Warren

James Nathan: 00:56 Hello and welcome to The Only One Business Show with me, your host, James Nathan and in the studio today, which is actually my lounge for a different change. I have a fantastic guest for you. She ran her own very successful business in the financial sector as a financial advisor. And then in 1999, all that changed when she was critically injured in the Paddington rail crash. Her injuries were so severe that she was not expected to pull through, but not only did she survive her injuries, she became the public face of the disaster, known as the Lady in the Mask championing the cause of rail safety. Her efforts have brought about landmark changes in the round network regulations. Since then, she’s gone on to become a highly acclaimed international public speaker and trainer, mainly helping organizations and commercial leaders develop from transactional leadership into transformational leadership, utilizing strategies, tactics, and tools drawn from her own remarkable experiences and ever changing environment. Please welcome Pam Warren. Pam. Hi. How are you?

 

Pam Warren: 01:56 Hello, that was a bit of a mouthful wasn’t it.

 

James Nathan: 01:57 It was a hell of a mouthful, but you’ve got a background and a half haven’t you….

 

Pam Warren: 02:01 I’ve done a lot in my time on this earth. Yes.

 

James Nathan: 02:04 So how do you go from championing rail safety and becoming the face of that horrible experience to changing transactional leaders and transformational leaders?

 

Pam Warren: 02:17 Well, it took me a while to realize, but because of everything I was doing back then, campaigning, taking on the government, dealing with the rail industry, I learned a lot of unique skills. And then when I coupled that with running my own business before the train crash, I suddenly realized, well, actually there’s a lot that I can offer to other people in terms of advice. And that’s what I started off doing. Right? But then I also discovered that because of what had happened to me personally, I love change. I got so used to it that now if my life gets too static, I actually throw a little grenade into my life. To you then create some change because I’d love it.

 

James Nathan: 03:00 Cause that’s, that’s almost the polar opposite of most people. Most people don’t like change. They like things as they are or they think they like them that way.

 

Pam Warren: 03:07 Yes. And I do understand that because that’s the way I used to be. But now what I do is I go out and I show people and I train people in how to actually embrace change. To see it as opportunity, not something to be feared. And once you’ve got rid of that fear of change or that idea that you don’t want to encourage change into your life, boy do the doors start opening up for you, your whole world changes

 

James Nathan: 03:34 And you were in financial services before. And that was your world until it all fell apart or change massively

 

Pam Warren: 03:43 Particularly. Yes. My specialization was pension scheme. So you really can’t get much boring

 

James Nathan: 03:49 So you’re working in an environment with people who like stability and they like concrete stuff. They know what’s gonna happen. Pensions are all about absolutes, arent they?

 

Pam Warren: 03:59 I used to get really excited over statistics and graphs that used to be me, believe it or not.

 

James Nathan: 04:05 Well, I’ve known you for years now. I find that very hard to believe. I remember you telling me, you know, when you were turning 50 that you wanted to do a circus act or you wanted to jump on a trapeze or something.

 

Pam Warren: 04:20 You’ve just given my age away on air! [laughs]

 

James Nathan: 04:23 Well, I’m 50 in a very few months. And I’m going to embrace it as hard as I can,

 

Pam Warren: 04:27 But yeah, I wanted to celebrate my 50th didn’t I with a circus act and learn how to do the trapeze.

 

James Nathan: 04:33 When you mentioned really enjoy graphs and statistics, I think well who the hell was that person? Cause it’s not the one that I know you.

 

Pam Warren: 04:42 You probably wouldn’t have liked her

 

James Nathan: 04:43 Well, you said that to me before. I’m not sure that’s true because we are made of our background and our makeup. Aren’t we, we’re who we are, we become who we are as a result of who we were.

 

Pam Warren: 04:53 Yeah. Although again, when I look back, I do wonder was that old Pam? I call it pre-crash Pam. Was she the result of the conditioning that we get in this country? Was she the result of coming through the British education system being churned out to work and then particularly back then Margaret Thatcher was prime minister, right? Money was good and greed was good. And if you could stack when your grandmother get to where you wanted to be, then you did so. Yeah. and unfortunately may be she was a product of that because when I look back on the person I used to be, I hardly recognize myself. So actually the train crash actually became a liberating factor in my life, particularly once I’d recovered and managed to put into my past. And I’ve managed to hang onto that liberation so I don’t see the world, the world of work who I encounter the same as I used to.

 

James Nathan: 05:58 It’s an interesting thing to talk around because I’ve met quite a few people recently who’ve been in business a long time, who had started to look very carefully at what they’re actually doing in business and the kind of business they want to run and the type of impact they want to have. Now for some of those people, you know, having made a lot of money gives you a lot of options. For others, it’s not about money, but it’s about looking at the greater good or trying to do better for people. You know, I look back at my life and think, you know, the guy was when I was a recruitment consultant working in London in my mid twenties, a very different person who I am now. And do I like everything about that person. No. Not at all. I think there was a lot of greed and you know, if you had the right pen and the right car and all that sort of, I call it crap these days because it doesn’t matter. But also when you’re older and you’ve experienced more things become more important. People and life and humanity I think becomes more important to you.

 

Pam Warren: 06:55 It does. And also I suppose when we enter what I like to term as middle aged, not old age then yes, you’re right, experience will change how you look back on yourself. But mine happened in an instant. I had no choice. I didn’t have all that time to grow. I was shoved into my middle-aged almost overnight. So if you like, I’m almost viewing this through using your analogy through the eyes of an 80 year old. So the world to me is very technicolor. No. But my body’s still energetic enough and efficient enough to still do things and get on with changing things. And, people still listen to me. Unfortunately I suppose when you get into your 80s and 90s, physically, then people tend to not listen to you so much. So I’m going to enjoy this period of my life while I can still have an effect. And hopefully transform not just other people’s lives now because I want everyone to be as excited about life and what’s going on and how it’s all changing around them now. But also as I then get older and older and older, I’m hoping to change people’s attitude to the wisdom that’s locked up in our 80 year olds and our 90 year olds. And now obviously people are surviving into the hundreds.

 

James Nathan: 08:16 It’s very interesting what you say about people looking at you and, and the way they engage with you, depending on what age you are. I always thought that for a long time, I thought, I better change my career quickly at some point because I’m talking to 20 year olds and they’ll think who’s this old bloke? But actually what I’ve found is that’s not the case that they really want to draw from your experience and they want to understand what you know. And I’d hope that would carry on a while, but you’re right, there is a point where you’re old and frail and people think your mind is old and frail and that’s not in many cases, you know, the way it is. But also so many people who, who look back and say, I wish I’d had conversations with my grandmother. I wish I’d spent time talking. It’d be good if they did it

 

Pam Warren: 09:01 That the way AI is going at the moment, you may be able to have conversations with your grandmother in the future [laughs]

 

James Nathan: 09:07 Now. That would be quite incredible. That would be really incredible. When you, when you talk about making life’s different or helping people see the world differently or however you phrased it’s not about the flowery side of life. When you look at people in business, it’s very focused isn’t it?

 

Pam Warren: 09:23 Yes. And is focused on taking their blinkers away. Realizing that even in the world of business, you know, life can be technicolor because when you think about it, a lot of us work, I mean it’s supposed to be 40 hours a week. A lot of us work a lot more than that. Some work weekends, some work nights. And it can get dreary and it can get drudgery. And if you have an employer that isn’t caring for their staff in the right way, then again, you’re going to lose the morale of your team that’s around you. So it’s really changing the concept of that, getting employers to realize that it’s not all about the money anymore. It is about quality of life and people want a nice balance. And if you’re too sick and ill, because you’re working too hard to enjoy your time off, what is the point? Which is why again, I think there’s been a spurt in cottage industries setting up where people are leaving corporate life. Particularly people our age. And for the youngsters, I mean they don’t enter employment and then think, oh, I’m going to be here for the next 20 years. They tend to enter employment and be looking around for the next one.

 

James Nathan: 10:38 Yeah. There’s there’s a lot of talk around the millennial and the generation x and y. And we were talking before we started recording and neither of us were quite sure what x or y or z actually meant anymore. But what I thought was fascinating, we were talking about millennials recently, millennials are anybody born after 1980. Right. So millennials are about to turn 40. Now in my mind, that’s not a youngster so much. That’s cause I still think I’m 18 in my head, even though I’m clearly not. But I don’t know if…. There is absolutely a step change in the way that people think about their careers and how they move around. That’s obvious. And you know, certainly when I’m working with my recruitment clients, people move jobs. You know, it used to be that the shelf life of a jobs about three years shelf life of a job is significantly less now depending on what happens in the business.

 

James Nathan: 11:30 If you keep your good people and you move them internally, then they can stay there a lot longer. But businesses need to be aware of that but it’s not a new thing. If I look back at my own career when I was with, with Michael Page Group I moved jobs every two years and that was because the business was constantly progressing me and I was always pushing, so I didn’t need to look outside. I didn’t think to look outside until the time came to leave. Are business is not doing that anymore? They just paying lip service to what people are looking for or they just not set up for it.

 

Pam Warren: 12:06 Well, I wouldn’t speak for all businesses, but because of having been a financial advisor in the past, I’ve fallen back into when I’m doing my training and my talks, it tends to be the financial services sector because I understand the worlds that they still inhabit and the terminology hasn’t changed that much and the regulations just got worse rather than better. So I’ve tended to go back into that arena and that still is very much, it reminds me the 1980s to be perfectly frank, people are still very much working in silos. They don’t communicate with each other. The employers are not quick to pick up on the fact that yes, they should be bringing people through that wants it within their teams and they should be getting them to develop and grow. Some don’t even know how to get them to develop and grow apart from dangling a bonus in front of them, which is not the same thing at all.

 

James Nathan: 13:03 They’re 20 years behind, aren’t they?

 

Pam Warren: 13:05 Yes, they are. And that’s why I say a lot of financial institutions…. they also don’t see the dangers because I’ve been talking to them about you know, the new banks like Starling and also the new technology that’s coming through. I love all that information stuff. Yeah. And warning them that if they keep up with the way they’re doing things now, they will become the dinosaurs that everyone talks about.

 

James Nathan: 13:32 It’s happening much faster in the financial service sector than people notice, I know, you know, this, this the Revolut bank that you do, a lot of people now use the card and the overseas. It’s a Lithuanian business. You know, and we just expect… We use it because it’s, it’s free and cheap and quick and easy. And very, very clear in how it all works. But it’s built on blockchain, which is quite interesting. You know, and so when you start to get behind these technologies, all that is rolling through every aspect of what we do. Any transactional businesses changing now.

 

Pam Warren: 14:10 Yet if you speak to the older institutions, if you say block chain at them, they go flash in the pan. And I’m thinking, no, i’t not.

 

James Nathan: 14:18 Alan Sugar said that iPods wouldn’t take off. You know, I’m sure he wishes he never had. But whenever I hear someone saying, oh, that’s a flash in the pan, I think you’re crazy, technology’s moving so, so fast. Some of it is really great. You know, some of it makes our lives so much nicer. Some of the aspects of AI are brilliant. They make complaints online and things so quick and easy, but a lot of it muddles people and it stops the for being on my mind, or stops the good service side of what goes on because it’s, you know, there’s too much emphasis on self-help rather than businesses making themselves available to you.

 

Pam Warren: 14:56 I would agree. There comes a stage, even when somebody like me who enjoys the technology, you do want to speak to a human being. And you want that human being to interact with you as a human being rather than just as a number or statistic or customer or you know. We can have the danger of forgetting that we’re all human beings. Yeah. And that we’re all connected. And if we isolate ourselves too far into the technology, then the possibility is you wouldn’t talk to another human being for a whole week. Whole month. Whole year.

 

James Nathan: 15:32 Yeah. Well you could become heavily depressed? Couldn’t you if you ended up in that sort of environment?

 

Pam Warren: 15:37 Oh gosh, I mean you, yes. You just think about the prisoners that get locked in solitary confinement. I mean, it’s not long before they’ve go doo lally. So yeah, it’s, it’s a fine balancing act, but I agree with you that information and the technology is moving so quick. And AI, I should be embraced. Because there are so many exciting things going on within it. But it does need to be treated with caution.

 

James Nathan: 16:04 Do you know what I find really fascinating though, when you look, if we pull up look at AI and how that works and play with service a little bit along the side of that, a lot of businesses see it as a way of, you know, reducing costs, getting rid of human beings, making things simple actually it puts friction in the way a lot of the time. If we talk about the big high tech businesses or the big software businesses, certainly, they don’t do it that way. If you look at the way that Apple uses AI or I’ve been building a website recently and needed some help with the theme that I’ve been using and there’s a load of online help and there’s a load of chat bot stuff that you can use, but if you send them an email, a human being comes back with a solution. And I found that actually that’s given me three different ways to transact, but I’ve got to use the real one. And when I want the human, the human’s really helpful. And a lot of businesses don’t do it that way. The software houses get it and they’re the guys writing the code. The other ones need to learn as well.

 

Pam Warren: 17:07 Yes, yes. And I had an incident recently where I asked for a brochure, a physical brochure. And I said all it was all online now. Now I personally have this rule that an hour before I want to go to bed, which is the time when, if I’m going to investigate things, I might investigate it then. I have a rule that I put my iPad, my computers, my phones away. I don’t want that light before I want to go to sleep. It’s quite nice to then pick up a brochure and flick through it. So I was thought that they were… No, there was no printed brochure. I had to look online. So of course what then happened that was, it took me 10 days to actually bother to go online because I could not find the time during my working day, or the time when I had, I would allow myself to use my online stuff to look at that particular website. So, you know, did that slow down my buying process? While ultimately, yes it did.

 

James Nathan: 18:08 Right. Isn’t that interesting because so many businesses are doing that. I mean I even my business, I’m paperless apart from the pad that I scratch on cause I can’t find a, a way of writing on a screen that I actually like.

 

Pam Warren: 18:20 But we’ve got print on demand. Yeah. What, what, why don’t you have an app that we do have a print on demand app. So if somebody like me who’s not doing it because of my age, I’m doing it because I just have this sleep hygiene that I go through. If I ask, you should be able to go putting yes. It’s been printed and will be posted.

 

James Nathan: 18:39 The answer is yes, you should. And at that, actually that’s quite nice cause it brings us around to a conversation we were having about people working with people who are older than them and engaging with different generations. And there’s a lot of chat. Particularly in a lot of my clients when we’re talking about how do they engage with the junior workforce. And, I put a bit of a spanner in all the time cause I think, okay, that’s fine. We need to know how to engage with them, but they need to learn to engage with us because the people that they’re transacting with, the people that they’re building relationships with, the people in business who have the money and the purse strings and the decision making tend to be the generation older than them in lots of businesses. And so unless we’re teaching them to work with us as well as us work with them, then there’s a disconnect isn’t there? So when you say they should be printed on demand? I’m thinking, well I’m of course their should and why the hell isn’t there? Because it’s so simple to have, but it’s just like having, you know, your Chat Bot, your phone number and everything else. So it gives people a wife to get in touch with you to communicate with you. It should be that way round as well.

 

Pam Warren : 19:50 And it’s, yes, I mean as a business you could get away with not doing something like print on demand simply because the, the younger generation, the 20 somethings, they are so used to technology that it wouldn’t occur to them to ask for a printed version. I mean I always remember a friend’s child of five who was given a physical book but was just swiping the front.

 

James Nathan: 20:16 Yeah. I’ve heard a similar story like that.

 

Pam Warren: 20:20 I actually watched that and I thought, they’re obviously coming out of the womb like that.

 

James Nathan: 20:25 How old does it make you feel though? It’s like they don’t even, well I once lent a record to my niece who’s, she’s 30 now, but she wants to listen to Sergeant Pepper’s Lonely hearts Club Band. And so I lent her the album and she brought it back and said it was really good. But she was disappointed, didn’t have Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds on it and she didn’t know to turn it over. Cause she was used CDs, she was used to cds. But now that CD’s have disappeared, I mean it’s a whole different, whole different kettle of fish isn’t it?

 

Pam Warren: 20:59 Oh Gosh. Yeah. I mean it’s like I’m at the moment thinking about buying a new car. I have been test driving quite a few because I’m not the type that just plumps for one, I need to feel it and physically see, okay, I can view it online. Yes. And I went through all the criteria and spec, but there came a point when I wanted to see it physically. Yes. I wanted to take it out and drive. I’m a small female and I did not want the car that was going to look ridiculous because it’s so big. But again, you know, it’s getting that idea of coping with the technology. Cause I got in this car to test drive it and I was going, I said to the salesperson, where’s the CD player? And he just looked at me as if I was nuts and he said, that isn’t one, you just Bluetooth your phone and then you run your music app through you go. And I was like, oh right great. So I knew, cause again I would’ve naturally gone where do I plug my USB? That would be more next step after cds. But in a strange sort of way I was a bit sad because I thought to myself, I do have quite a few cds. I would like to play them in my car, but now I’m going to have to download them.

 

James Nathan: 22:14 We’re just going to start getting nostalgic now for bits of plastic that we used to like to handle. There’s nothing nicer than standing at your record collection and having a look at what you want to play. It’s different now. That, that sort of side of things is great. But when you’re buying cars, cause I had this….. I love the….. Like a lot of people I guess I enjoy the finding out and the information gathering stage of a purchase like that. I drive Mandy completely crazy to the point where she says, well, you just go and buy the bloody thing now. So when you’re going to a showroom to look at a car, you’ve already done all your research. You’ve looked at the three or four different alternatives and different makers that you’ve got, you can spec them up online ’til your heart’s content or they look so, so they get so expensive, there’s no way you’re going to buy it. So when you walk into a showroom, their job is to show you the physical thing, not to talk to you about the technology. You should, most people will already know that, won’t they?

 

Pam Warren: 23:06 Yeah. Yeah. You think so? However, I mean, I’m having a horrifying… it hasn’t finished yet. I’m having a horrifying experience. Because I narrowed it down to two cars, two cars I thought, Yup. That really comfortable. I like them. I think you know, that I can see myself in for a few years and the salespeople have been atrocious. No one is actually our age. The other ones, and I say I’m sticking with the same car maker, but I’ve now had to have three salespeople. They have all been in their 20s

 

James Nathan: 23:44 These are prestige brands, aren’t they? These aren’t the, you know, you’re very cheap end of the market you’re looking at.

 

Pam Warren: 23:49 No, I mean one was a Lexis and the other one was Jaguar.

 

James Nathan: 23:51 Yeah. So they’re, they’re expensive products.

 

Pam Warren: 23:53 Yeah. Yeah. And as I pointed out to some of these salespeople when I was getting really hacked off with the service they were giving me was I said, it’s not like I’m buying your hand bag here. Yeah. I’m spending thousands of pounds with you, so please treat me accordingly.

 

James Nathan: 24:06 I mean, to be honest, even at the cheap end of the market, nothing’s cheap anymore. Cars are expensive things.

 

Pam Warren: 24:11 Exactly. Yeah. But I expect a certain level of service if it, you know, if I’m buying at that rate, unless of course we’ve got so many squillionaires out there that they’re buying cars left, right and centre and the UK car manufacturing business is not going down the hill at the moment.

 

James Nathan: 24:28 Well, I’ll tell you what, we’re told that it’s falling off a cliff. So they should be bending over backwards when someone walks through the showroom and says, I’d like to buy a car please. They should be sitting there with the biggest grin on their face thinking, great, how can we serve this person? How can we help her?

 

Pam Warren: 24:43 Yeah. Cause I’m getting the impression with all of them that it’s how can we get this person to buy this car as quickly as possible with the least minimum effort. I have been made to feel as a woman and bearing mine, I’m a single. I’m going, yes, I’ve done my research. And yes I have a friend who’s far more of a car expert than me who will be coming to see the actual physical car eventually. Yeah. But as a woman walking in, they, I can almost see the curtain descend where it’s not that they want to rip you off, but they are not gonna volunteer information. If you don’t ask you, you won’t get,

 

James Nathan: 25:21 Do you know? I can’t even…. I’m about to start swearing and ranting because for when you say as a woman, I think bloody hell really? Yeah. You know, when, you know, I have a personal feeling that, well my theory on sexual… well, the difference in gender in business will just disappear because the number of women coming through in jobs that they didn’t do 40 years ago and all that, it’s just become a muddle where it’s actually just people. And I don’t think people don’t actually see difference the way that they used to. My kids certainly don’t.

 

Pam Warren: 25:58 When I used to work in large offices and stuff. I never thought of people as male or female. It was weird. But people almost became sexless.

 

James Nathan: 26:10 Because that’s…. that’s actually in the work and the jobs that they do and the roles that they play. That’s right. That’s how they are. So when you’re a woman walking into a car dealership, it’s like walking back into the 1960s. Yeah. It’s crazy.

 

Pam Warren: 26:25 But when you think about it, and I hope that the men out there will not laugh at this, but I keep getting into new cars and then going, where do I put my hand bag? Yeah. Even car manufacturers have not thought this was free because there is no way a woman’s is going to fit into the centre console.

 

James Nathan: 26:46 But you know what though, when I was buying my car and they were trying to sell me keyless entry and I said, what do I do with the key when I get in the car? And they said, Oh, you just leave it in your bag. I don’t carry a bag. So they’ve obviously thought of people carrying bags?

 

Pam Warren: 27:00 Only in passing, but they know that women tend to be the ones that carry a handbag. But they have not thought about where do we put it. We don’t want to put it in the boot. I don’t want it on my front passenger seat because somebody might smash my window in and grab it. What would be really nice is say for car manufacturer, designed the driver’s seat so that it’s got a compartment underneath. So you flick up the seat, put your hand back underneath and shut the seat.

 

James Nathan: 27:30 Well, like they sometimes do, don’t they? But then if you’ve got all the electronics in the seat moving at about there’s no room. Anyway, the solution is really simple. Go for a car without electrical business. And then you can slide it under the seat. So when people are talking to you, when you go into these places and you look at the way that they’re interacting with you and then you get back into financial services, is there a difference, are sales people different in different environments?

 

Pam Warren: 27:57 Yes they are. I believe so. And I haven’t had, well I say I haven’t had that much exposure to new progressing companies, but I have. They’re totally different again. Totally different as in… it’s far more relaxing, working with them, right? With the financial institutions, it’s hard work, but in a strange sort of way, I’ve got this nostalgic love for that industry, so I want to keep banging my head against the wall to try and get through to them, with something like car sales people. I’m just throwing my hands up in horror. Partly because I don’t have to deal with them all the time. But I have to say that when I eventually do make the decision to proceed with the purchase of this new car, I will not look back on the experience as a nice experience. It will be one that’s been… It’s made me feel uncomfortable. I actually felt like I was an inconvenience for them. Right. Which surely is…. And to be honest, I’m now getting to the stage where I’m sat there thinking do I really want to do this purchase?

 

James Nathan: 29:08 Please excuse my dog, who seems to be barking in the background. Hopefully she’ll stop that. Coco enough. So now we’ve got rid of the barking dog, which is not unusually my home. She likes to make her presence felt.

 

James Nathan: 29:24 Pam, thinking about your experiences recently with the cars and that purchase and then the financial services businesses that you’re working with. What’s the one thing, the big golden nugget, the one thought that you’d like to leave people with to make businesses better for today and better for the years to come?

 

Pam Warren: 29:44 Well definitely first of all, put yourself in your customer’s position. Don’t assume everyone’s online. I would actually, if I was a company that was selling something physical like cars, I would, even in financial services thinking about it. I would put the managers out as a mystery shopper almost to test what the customer experience is like. And whether they get frustrated with it, certainly send women into buy a car, in their own industry. And also this is something that I’ve never understood it, but I did it back in the 1980s. I reason to myself what is point in chasing new customers all the time. If you can look after your existing customers and keep them loyal and want to work with you, then you don’t need so many new people filling your funnel. Yeah. I’ve never understood why people didn’t get that. When I was, when I was selling pensions games, I managed to get a client base that was so big and bringing me in such regular money. I did not need any more clients. So I shut the door and then I discovered, because I shut the door, people thought I was exclusive. So was then banging on my door to try and become a client of mine. So therefore my fees were going up, etc. It made sense. Whereas these days, customer service across everything I’ve come across, including satellite TVs and all sorts, they will treat new customers and say, oh, here’s a carrot. Yeah. Come and join us. Existing customers. I find I’m always phoning up every single year. Say I’m thinking of leaving you. And then they go, oh, well okay, well here’s the deal. Or you know, and the price comes tumbling down. That to me is not a good customer experience. They should be thinking about how they are looking after their existing customers and looking after them well.

 

James Nathan: 31:48 It’s a very interesting point. Because people will pay more for quality service if things, if it’s easy and better they will pay a little bit more for that and they don’t mind doing it.

 

Pam Warren: 32:00 Yeah. And also, I mean again, they’re counting on numbers. They are thinking that there’ll be enough people with inertia that won’t phone up. Now, I’m one of those annoying people because of my financial background. I do phone up every single year. Yeah. but it just irritating all the time cause I’m negotiating. They dropped the price. Then the following year I negotiate, they dropped the price and I’m sort of settling down. What will you please stop this? Can you, have you not flagged my record that says this is a person that negotiates we’ll offer her a much better rate.

 

James Nathan: 32:34 If it will stop her phoning up,. When you ring they say, Oh Pam, look, yes you don’t need to phone us anymore. Cause we’ve cottoned onto the fact that you’re about, you know, you know how it works. Here’s the right price and let’s get on with it. Fantastic Pam. That’s great, that’s given us lots to think about. Thanks so much for your time and how busy you are. Good luck with your, with your car purchase. I hope you get whatever you want.

James Nathan: 32:58 Thanks a lot, Pam.