S2E6 – The Massive Goals Edition with David Hyner

James Nathan  0:54  Hello, and welcome to The Only One Business Show with me your host James Nathan, and today I’ve got a fabulous guest for you. And I think you’re going to really enjoy his view of the world. He’s a man who suggests that setting realistic and achievable goals does not work and works around a credible principle called the Massive Goal Principle. He’s an interesting man and that he spent his life working with a variety of people but a lot of the time with school kids, with kids who and and young adults who are coming out into the world. He’s hosted various different shows on lots of different topics. And away from the day to day of work. He loves to raise money for charity. In fact, he’s raised over half a million pounds for different charities, including organizing a trip across the Great Wall of China, which having walked on for about five minutes myself, is a hell of a thing. He’s also an extremely proud husband and father. And I’ve got a say a really good guy. Please welcome David Hyner.

 

David Hyner  1:58  David, how if I want to meet you this guy, James, he says great, he says

 

James Nathan  2:05  Smart goals do not work. What do you mean by that? Yeah.

 

David Hyner  2:08  Well, everyone who has ever read a book been on a course been sent on a course or seeing speakers talk about goals, nothing. They’re always taught realistic and achievable targets, or the buzz phrase is SMART specific, measurable, achievable, realistic, time focused, or time bound goals. And it’s been taught since the late 70s, because of a project manager called George T Doran, who worked on multi billion dollar water utility projects in the States. And because of that, the business world picked up on it. And they started saying your goals, which therefore should be smart.

 

James Nathan  2:45  So in water utilities, that doesn’t matter.

 

David Hyner  2:48  Well, the problem, James is that he didn’t set SMART goals. He actually set smart steps to massive projects. He was misquoted. And the reason that I talk about massive goals rather than realistic and achievable targets, is because in my research, which is to date about 238 top achievers, from every walk of life, you could imagine at every level of success, from every continent, virtually on the planet, asking them the specific question, how do you set goals? Please tell me, James, how many do you think of them? Well, that’s the question, how do you set goals? And so by saying, Oh, I set realistic or achievable goals?

 

James Nathan  3:31  Let me guess, then none.

 

David Hyner  3:34  Bang on the money. Not one of them, not a single one of them to date in 21 years, have said I set realistic and achievable or smart goals in their answer to that question. They all said things like massive goals. So if that’s what they do, and the guy who said SMART goals was misquoted. Why are we teaching our kids, why we’re teaching our sales teams, why our customers services directors and teams across the world, globally, just doing safe?

 

James Nathan  4:06  They do safe because, it’s safe. And if they’re if they’re not….but the people you’re talking to, are they just everybody, you’re talking about high achievers, but they’re normal people out they

 

David Hyner  4:19  They are amongst the most normal people, the people, the people at the very highest level tend to….I’m over egging the pudding here, James but they almost like become quite Zen and very down to earth and normal. It’s the people who tend to prance around in the shiny suits pointing fingers, and trying to build themselves up, are the people two or three rungs down from the very top. Right, because they’re desperate to hold on to their position and desperate to get up to the top. The people at the top are fearless. So they just become very normal. They think and behave differently to us. But then normal people that’s gonna become far more relaxed, far more conversational. And then very open, it’s the people two or three rooms down, what I would call the tenacious beasts, trying to desperately tread on people to hold their position and get to the top, they’re the ones we have to worry about

 

James Nathan  5:09  What makes the people who achieve the top rung so different to the ones two or three below?

 

David Hyner  5:16  There are two standout things from the research. And number one is that they don’t set SMART goals, they set massive goals. But what drives their goals and their behaviors, so personally and professionally, is that they know why they have a purpose, or reason to do it bigger than their fear of failure. So if you or I  were to raise money for….. to sorry, to sign up for a marathon. Now. I don’t know if you run James, but I’m not built for speed

 

James Nathan  5:48  David, you’ve seen me…..

 

David Hyner  5:54  So if we were to set a massive goal of you and I were going to run a marathon next year, which by the way, I really don’t want to do. Let’s just say you have got a cause that burns inside of you, whether it’s kittens, puppy dogs, children, starvation, injustice, whatever it is. And I’m just doing it because I want to run a marathon. On a cold, wet December Sunday morning at 5am. You’re the one that’s going to get out of the duvet and go for a training running the rain. Oh, another one that’s rolls over and hit snooze on the clock. Because you’ve got a reason bigger than the pain to go out and achieve the goal.

 

James Nathan  6:35  I get that in example you’ve given me but how does it work in business? How does purpose work? Are we talking the Simon Sinek kind of stuff? Or is it different to that?

 

David Hyner  6:44  Well, some Simon Sinek and my research, we came up with an identical model, but in very different…. for different reasons. And also he talks about values an awful lot, a lot of people talk about purpose, will talk about the values, they never consider insecurities, who have 50% of who we are, you know, we must do things not only there’s a congruent with our values, but also satisfy our insecurities. Otherwise, they’ll crop up. But if you want to talk about how this applies to business, let’s talk about customer service. Let’s talk about recruitment. Let’s talk about any any genre of business that you want. Okay, customer service.

 

If somebody is in a customer service position, and they’re doing it for a job, they might get good. But there will be moments where they’ll go, that will do. If somebody’s not through being servial, through insecurities, but through a genuine desire to serve and offer great, I mean, outstanding service. They will consistently deliver forever, at the very highest level and do things spontaneously, that even the company haven’t asked them to do, what they will go over above beyond, they will do the things that, you know, most people don’t do, and they’re not doing it out of obligation. They’re doing it out of a desire to be the very, very best.

 

James Nathan  8:17  So is that hiring correctly, then? Is that hiring the right people?

 

David Hyner  8:21  Bang on the money. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It all comes down to, you know, your not going to hire an  accountant to do customer service and you’re not going to hire someone like me to do accounts. It is horses for courses, right? Right now across the world. There are there are organizations who are putting cots and beds and comfy chairs in and into offices because they’re realizing not that the dreamers, the creative people actually they need a rest. They’re just as if not more valuable than the detail people crunching the numbers and the sales people out hitting the ground.

 

James Nathan  8:55  I’m really fascinated by that cultural thing, because I see so many different types of businesses and you know, we look at the the big stary businesses who have the, you know, remember going into Google in London and you know, there are, it is exactly as you expect it to be, there a table tennis tables, and they’re healthy eating things, and there as a place for the band to play. And there’s all that kind of stuff. And smaller businesses look at that and they think, that’s really cool. We’ll do that. But that’s not aligning with their own business is it? That’s just copying someone who’s successful.

 

David Hyner  9:27  Well, again, that’s the difference between a purpose and a goal. So there’s it there’s a smashing guy, he’s got a great business up in the north. And it’s called Cosatto. Cosatto make funky high end designer, what he calls baby furniture, basically cots, pram, car seats. Yeah. And but it’s funky stuff, really high end. And his passion is to reach the world of boring baby furniture. Now, he puts a play room for the staff. Now, as you quite rightly said, you can go to some offices where it’s like a beanbag, a dartboard and a microwave. That hasn’t been cleaned in three weeks you know? And that is not a play room. This guy dedicates a whole floor of his office. And it is honestly, if you and I were to walk in there, we could spend a week and not get bored. It is insane

 

James Nathan  10:22  What was that Tom Hanks movie? With the toys?

 

David Hyner  10:24  Big. Yeah, better than that, it’s better than that. And if you go upstairs to the playroom, you have to come down using the slide. But he doesn’t play at it. It’s you know, you go big or go home. It’s either we’re doing this, don’t play it. You either do it or you don’t.

 

James Nathan  10:48 I had a conversation on a podcast recently with with a guy who said purpose is nonsense. It’s it’s all claptrap. We just…..businesses don’t need a purpose businesses need to get on with it and do the right thing by their customers. Is there an essence of truth in what he’s saying, or you do completely refute that.

 

David Hyner  11:09  I say people who hire a PR company company to get a little cliched statement that they can stick on the reception wall when people walk in are complete and utter nonsense, waste of time. I say anyone who is willing to have a deep dive into either themselves as an individual or them as an organization, and create a statement that everybody rallies behind will become indestructible. Because they do the right things effortlessly, if they buy into it.

 

James Nathan  11:39  I remember having a conversation with you a few years ago now when I started out in public speaking. And you were talking to me about purpose. And I found it really difficult to get to the heart of that. And in fact, when I did get to the heart of it, my purpose was a very personal thing. It was about family and about security and what have you. What I do is I work in an area where I have a real passion with a real love for it. But I don’t consider that a purpose. Or am I miss judging myself?

 

David Hyner  12:09  I think you answered the question. Your your passion is security for you and your family? How are you doing that? Through your business. So you are not going to provide security for you and your family by you being average and half cocked in your business?

 

James Nathan  12:26  No, absolutely not. And you know, but I also believe that, you know, people who have a kind of taste for running businesses will look for opportunities or look for positions where they can exploit a marketplace, they’ll do that naturally, because that’s something they enjoy doing. But it doesn’t necessarily fit into their purpose. What I wonder is, you know, some businesses have a much bigger purpose, you know, their purpose is to produce enough money that they can then give enough money to a charity, for instance, and that, to me sounds very sensible, and very reasonable, but it’s not everybody’s style.

 

David Hyner  13:09  And what can I give you a business example, okay. I coached a business owner called Sat, he ran a reasonably successful, will have to say, kitchen, luxury kitchen manufacturing and fitting business in the West Midlands. We became incredibly good friends. And every time I did a charity event, without asking, he would hand over the desk to me or the pub table, a blank cheque. Now, he would write a figure on which was always a minimum of four numbers. And he would say, just fill the name of the charity. Now, first couple of times, I just snatched his hand off. And then then I started going old on Sat, I’ve known you long enough. Why are you doing this? You don’t even know what the charity. So why would you give? What if I’m giving something to that’s contrary to your values and beliefs? And he says, I trust you. I said, but why are you giving? Because it makes me feel good. Anyway, I pressed and I pressed and I pressed. And it transpired, eventually, that you said, I have to be seen to be giving more than my brother. He had no idea why it was giving. It was a flippant gesture. I said, right, Sat. I want to find a reason why you’re in business. He says, I know that he says Dave, he said it’s to financially secure my family. With respect. You’re a multimillionaire already. That’s job done. Why are you still making money then? And he could not answer it. So he went off with his dad back to his home country for a visit to see family and spend some time in the village where he grew up. And he came back three months later looking like Captain Caveman. And he looked me in the eye and said, I now know why we must make money. And in the pit of a reception, reception? In the pit of a recession, when all of his competitors were falling off a cliff, he doubled his turnover, massively increased his profit and flew. Why because he came back, he turned to his family and all of his staff and said, for every, you know, when we reach these figures every single year, this is what we’re going to do, are you with me, and they bought into it, they flew.

 

Forgive me if I don’t say the words correctly. But Napoleon Bonaparte, there’s a quote that he says, which is, I give my men a ribbon, and they will die for me. All we need to find these that ribbon for ourselves, for our businesses, for our teams. All we need to do is find the thing that gets people up and at it, we’ve all got the buttons, we just don’t know how to press them. And that involves a bit of work, a bit of effort. I can totally understand and accept why people would disrespect the idea of having a purpose is because frequently these people are terrified of looking at themselves properly. They love looking at their values. That’s sweet, that’s easy. That’s an nice ego stroking stuff. Yeah, well, let’s look at the dirty stuff. Let’s find out your insecurities. Because whether we like it or not, that’s who we are as well. And if we understand them, they become a strength because we can use them indecision.

 

James Nathan  16:13  You know, I firmly believe that businesses are very good at looking at the good stuff and patting themselves on the back. I don’t think businesses as a whole lot of businesses anyway, a good looking the bad stuff. And the negatives is where we improve the insecurities or where we look for what we need to do next to change and to become greater and become better. And the more we look at negatives, the better our businesses get. There’s a fantastic quote from one of Gordon Ramsay’s books where he talks about reviews and customer reviews and says, you know, it’s all well and good to get the nice reviews where people say it was wonderful, but we know we’re good, what I need to look at is what’s bad. And he doesn’t look at any reviews that are good, he doesn’t care. He just wants to see the negative reviews, look for patterns. And if you can find, you know, one one bad review, that’s no good, two bad reviews, exactly the same problem. There’s a systematic error, and they need to fix it. And I think there’s quite a [ting sound] Yeah, thank you. I think that’s a really neat way of looking at things we only get better by changing the things we’re not good at. We can get better at the good things we’re good at. But sorry flipping back to goals and setting those massive goals. Is there a way that people should start to think about that?

 

David Hyner  17:28  Certainly. Just before we do that, Can I just tail what you’ve said, because what you said there was gold dust. But there’s a need. there’s a there’s a layer of cream on the top that is huge value for any company or team that invest in looking at purpose, which is they get higher staff retention, higher staff morale, higher, higher output and efficiency, which means less stress, more money in the bank.

 

James Nathan  17:53  That’s great for everyone isn’t it.

 

David Hyner  17:54  It’s a win win chicken dinner isn’t it. How can you lose, really? So back to your question. Yeah. How can people look at the idea of massive goals? Well, again, it stems from having a purpose, because when you’re purpose driven, you naturally and more confidently look bigger. You just do because you’re more courageous, you’re slightly more bulletproof. And so you do, you look bigger. Now, I would strongly recommend that people have themselves and I’m sure you’ve had other people chat to you about this, a mastermind group. Once you’ve got an idea for what it is you want to achieve personally, or professionally, get yourself a little team around you. I call it a kick ass group, as I call it, you’ve got people who will say there are two things that most people avoid, that top achievers seek. Okay, so here’s another trait from the research. Two things that virtually everybody avoids that top achievers proactively go and seek, which is support and accountability. Because if we’re honest, in different parts of our lives, if we’re honest, we need support. And in other parts, we need accountability. I know in my business, I need accountability. And in my home life, I need support. And I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t. So when we get the right level and quality of support and accountability in our business, in our lives. We fly because you can’t just tell a sob story. I haven’t got that done this week. Because, because people will look around and go not good enough step up. Because they’re fearless because they’ve got your best interests at heart. And I would strongly recommend that you don’t have friends in your group, because it turns into a fireside chat. Everyone is too nice to tell you the truth. And you must have people with different skill sets. And they must be at or above your level.

 

James Nathan  19:55  And when you talk about different skill sets, it’s different mindsets of you really want. Do you want different views?

 

David Hyner  20:02  Valid point. Yeah, yeah. I was in a mastermind group until about two years ago, it ran for three years, which is quite a long time for a mastermind group. And I had the people in my group, who’s who were lovely people. But they challenged me to my core, I mean, at times, genuinely scared me. Because they were financial people, they were high end technology people. Software Engineer was one, these people fried my brain, but they dragged me kicking and screaming out of my fear, to accept the things I had to do in my business. But likewise, they were surrounded by people just like them. And in our group I was the one who gave them 1,000,001 ideas, and then look them in the eye when really you’re not doing it yet, you know, so I was the one who sat on them. And that was a bad thing for them. But so it’s really important, as you say, you have a different mindsets, who will give you a totally different perspective when needed, the support, hold you to account. But more importantly, that they will give you the confidence and they’ll drag you kicking and screaming to their level.

 

James Nathan  21:14  To what point of view career do you do you need a mastermind group,

 

David Hyner  21:17  I would say as soon as you’ve got an idea for a massive goal. As soon as you’ve got an idea, you know, take it to the table, and try not to work on too many things for the next 12 months. Try and stick with one or two projects at best, one personal, one professional, go big or go home. And the statistic…… And if anyone’s afraid of massive goals, which is very common, even though people don’t admit it’s really common. If anyone’s afraid, here are the stats, okay? For every five massive goals, most people set, there will be one that will crash and burn. It might hurt you, you might get scabby knees. Yeah, there’ll be, there’ll be one or two, that will barely work. There’ll be one that will do really quite well and there’ll be one that you will knock at the ballpark, and you’ll get known for it. And people won’t even consider the failures. Now, if you were only to crash and burn once every five times and you’re talking big, big stuff. Now some people would still say not prepared to do that. Personally to me good odds on having that. good odds

 

James Nathan  22:32  Absolutely. I was talking to….. I was out for a drink last night actually talking to a friend of mine who’s going to, he’s treking to base camp at Everest, which is a fun thing. For him its a fun thing for to do. For me, it’s a nightmare. But he was talking about people climbing K2 and people climb K2 which is the second biggest mountain in that range all the time. One in three die. Okay, which is a hell of a statistic. And all were talking about is one in five ideas not working.  It seems a bit silly not to start doesn’t it?

 

David Hyner  23:06  Well, also and whether I work with chief executives or whether I work with students in high schools, I pause, I look people in the eye and say, so how is it possibly serving you not finding out how good you can be?

 

James Nathan  23:19  You talk about about massive goals and SMART goals. And you know, the more you think about SMART goals, the more I wonder why people… why would you want to be you know, why would you want to be ordinary? Why would you want to be mediocre? Isn’t that what SMART goals are doing?

 

David Hyner  23:37  Well, one of the people I interviewed was a guy called Tim Watts. He was poor as a kid, really poor. And him and his mom started a little recruitment company that turned into Pertemps. Now at the time of interview, they were the second largest recruitment company in Europe. He’s a very successful man. And he’s quote to me when I said how do you set goals was big fan, Harry goals. And I said, Are you aware people are being taught to set realistic and achievable goals? He laughed. I mean, barely laughed. And then the quote, one of my favorite quotes of all time from a top achiever is this. He stopped, he paused. And when you’re serious, you mean, you mean we’re setting people up for mediocrity at best? And that is the perception of SMART goals really effective succeeding people

 

James Nathan  24:29  Do you know I think that’s a…. I’m gonna write that quote on a wall. I love that. I talk a lot about satisfaction surveys. And I think it’s the same thing when people go to a restaurant or they go to a business or whatever it might be. And we send them a thing saying how did you find the service? And how did you find the the quality of our product and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, there’s always a one to five and, you know, and then they call it a satisfaction survey. And I wonder how the hell people are bothered by that because who wants satisfaction? No one goes into a business and says, please satisfy me. You know, my favourite quote I use a lot is you know, you don’t go to a restaurant run outside and call your Mum and shout, Mum, Mum I had such a satisfactory meal. Do you hell. It’s the same thing, isn’t it? It’s said if you’re not trying to achieve the absolute best you can be. Why bother?

 

David Hyner  25:23  Hundred percent, hundred percent. I mean, if you if you want to, if you’re like your quotes, here’s another one. From world renowned marine design engineer 12 times world powerboat racing champion Jules Morgan. This is clinically, one of the most fascinating minds I’ve ever met. And I’m proud to call this guy a mate. He said, realistic and achievable. goals do not work. He says, can you name me anything at all of man or woman kinds greatest ever achievements even would have started if they’ve set realistic goals. And when I asked that of any audience in the last 19 years as Speaker, speaking to 50,000 people a year most years, there is just these awkward silence.

 

James Nathan  26:08  You’ve achieved……

 

David Hyner  26:09  Just like that, just like that one

 

James Nathan  26:12  I’m trying to give you an awkward silence. But you’ve achieved a lot of stuff Dave. I mean you know that,  you’re not a boastful guy. But there are only 16 people in the Professional Speakers Award of Excellence group. And you’re one of those. And that’s a wonderful thing. What’s next for you, when you achieve such great, great stuff? What would you do, then?

 

David Hyner  26:35  I have massive goals. You know, you have to walk your talk. Along the way I do things that, for my situation are big goals. But my my uber goal is to get the goal setting process in front of every single young adult in the UK, within a year. Because if we do that, there’s a high percentage that will use it, then this country is sorted 10 years from now. My personal goal is each one that at the moment, many people would say is impossible. My my son has very limited vocabulary, because he has severe autism and special needs. And I want a conversation with him.

 

James Nathan  27:20  Well, I personally would love to hear you have that. I think that would be an amazing thing. But why is that not achievable? Technology’s moving on, science moves on? He’s moving on?

 

David Hyner  27:33  Yeah, yeah, everything at the moment, suggests that that will never happen. Butmy wife and I, we think differently. We will, we will keep pushing

 

James Nathan  27:43  Well, Eugene Cernan and who was the last man to walk on the moon was quoted, it was with a conversation. And I was reading his autobiography recently. And someone said, Can you achieve that? And he said, well, my footprint’s on the moon. And I thought, you know, what, if someone hadn’t said, we’re going to the moon, there would be no footprints on the moon.

 

You said something back then though, while you were talking that I thought was really important. You said for my situation. Setting goals outside of your expert…. people’s goals vary. And what might be huge for one person is not huge. For another, it might be, you know, the sandwich shop in our village might want to be the best sandwich shop in the village. Not the best sandwich shop in the world, or the biggest chain. You know, it’s a very personal thing. [bell sound] I love that little bell. I’m gonna have to keep talking to you. Well, but then also, what I wonder is when you look at these businesses, obviously, you know, joining a mastermind group is an individual process, being…. trying to be the very best you can be in your role or your business is an individual thing. How does that scale when we’re looking at bigger businesses and businesses that are growing? How can you scale that process?

 

David Hyner  29:04  All right, well, again, I’m going to sound like some cliche consultant there for a little bit sorry, but that that’s where big decisions must not be made by a board of directors on an away day. That’s where big decisions must have hearts and minds. It must be… everything must be everybody must be involved from the cleaner right up to the chief executive, to suppliers to customers, to your next door neighbor, you know, in the next office, or…. because the way we operate affects everybody. So why wouldn’t they be involved in the decision making process?

 

James Nathan  29:42  How’s that possible though?

 

David Hyner  29:43  A lot of work that most people are afraid to do. It just means work. It’s not hard. It’s just hard work. You know, it means really, really investing some time, energy and effort into understanding what your company is, what it stands for what and is not acceptable. You know, what are the lines in concrete, not sand that the company draws both in a positive sense. And in a negative sense, you know, what lines do we never, ever cross? And when everybody understands these boards, advise into them and have been involved in it? No one’s going to be involved in a purpose created by somebody else? Well, actually, that’s not true either read in hindsight, is it because, yeah, throughout history, there have been leaders who have got people to lay down their lives for them. You could do it in a malicious sense with, you know, insane religious cults. And you know, the leaders get people to do all sorts of things. So the force can be used for evil as well. But in a positive context, it’s just about talking to people and genuinely listening to them, taking it on board and creating a model with a framework around these are, this is who we are, not who I am, or the board on, or what we’d like to be. This is who we are warts and all. Because you said something earlier, before we came on air about, I’m gearing my business towards working with companies who are groovy, you know who people who get me. That’s exactly it, when you’re purpose driven, you easily say no to the customer, even if they’re offering you telephone numbers in turnover, if you know in your heart that they’re going to be a ball ache to deal with, and I’m going to suck the life from you.

 

James Nathan  31:31  Oh David, I love what you just said, there’s so many times where, particularly when businesses are newer, and you know, money’s often tight, and, you know, you need to get some cash in, because there’s bills there. There are opportunities to take business that really doesn’t work for you. And it never, ever works out. I mean, from my personal experience of that is, you know, if you every time you take a piece of business, or you pitch for something that you don’t genuinely believe is the right thing to do. It won’t be

 

David Hyner  32:02  It’s the equivalent of putting a gun to your head. It’s, you know, you’re absolutely right. There are moments when you start out where you need turnover, but eventually gets to a stage where people just want more, more, more, more, more, more, well, actually, how about more of the right stuff instead?

 

James Nathan  32:23  You do much better work for people that you have a connection with. You do much better work when it’s right inside of your niche. And that just resonates and it gets talked about. And all the good stuff comes as a result.

 

David Hyner  32:37  A month ago, I just I said no to two customers within a month and it killed me because they were both really good kids. And, but then, you know, within weeks, you find a company that you work for where they are just exactly the same as you. They’re bullish, they’re proactive, they’re driven, but they’re also really quite immature like me. We just get each other. We just get each other and you know, I rave about them. They rave about me, they’ve booked me for two days next year again, and it’s just, when you work with people just like you magic happens. So why on earth would you hang around with cows when you can hang around the rhinos?

 

James Nathan  33:14  I was waiting for you to say that. In fact, I’m having a cup of tea in my Rhino cup today. I thought I better get that out. David, thank you so much for so many great thoughts there. You always open my mind to a whole world of different thinking. One thing though, could you leave us and the listeners with just one great idea one big golden nugget to make their businesses better today and better for the years to come?

 

David Hyner  33:42  Stop trying to be liked. Stop trying to be like this is a mixture of things from research and also from a mutual friend of ours Nigel Risner. It stopped trying to be liked and instead, by your actions, do things that earn you trust and respect because if you’re trusted and respected, you won’t be liked you’ll be loved by your customers

 

James Nathan  34:06  That’s fantastic, David, thank you so so much.

 

David Hyner  34:10  God bless you, man.