S3e3 The Forgiveness and Strength Edition with Madeleine Black

S3e3 The Forgiveness and Strength Edition with Madeleine Black

James chats with Madeleine Black, a woman with an unusual personal story, which she uses to inspire and motivate others. She chose to forgive the two men who gang raped her at the age of 13. And she tells her story for many, many reasons.


She wants to end the shame, stigma and silence surrounding sexual violence, enabling others to find their voice, whatever their story is. She wants people to know that it’s not what happens to us that is important, but what we do with it. She will show how changing her mindset tapped into her resilience and transformed her life.


Making people question their own thinking and encouraged them to see that there are always choices to make. And if we choose to, we can get past anything that happens to us in our life, both professionally and personally. She wants to inspire hope and show people that we are so much stronger than we actually think we are.

Click for the full transcript

James Nathan 0:53  Hello and welcome to The Only One Business Show with me your host James Nathan and today I’ve got a fabulous guest for you and I think you’re going to really enjoy her thoughts and what she has to say. She has an unusual personal story, which she uses to inspire and motivate others. She chose to forgive the two men who gang raped to at the age of 13. And she says her story for many, many reasons. She wants to end the shame, stigma and silence surrounding sexual violence, enabling others to find their voice, whatever their story is. She wants people to know that it’s not what happens to us that is important, but what we do with it. She will show how changing her mindset tapped into her resilience and transformed her life. Making people question their own thinking and encouraged him to see that there are always choices to make. And if we choose to, we can get past anything that happens to us in our life, both professionally and personally. She wants to encourage others to live their life courageously. She wants to inspire hope and show people that we are so much stronger than we actually think we are. Please welcome, Madeleine Black. Madeleine how are you?


Madeleine Black 2:11 Thanks, James. I’m good. Thanks lovely to be here with you


James Nathan 2:14 No, it’s great to have you on. It’s a hell of a starting story that one. And I’ve just got a quote here, which I absolutely love, which is from you, which says, “We are not defined by what knocks us down, but we are defined by how we get back up.”


Madeleine Black 2:29  Absolutely. And it’s actually kind of synchronicity that I’m speaking here today because yesterday was Holocaust Memorial Day. And I may not be aware, but my father was a Holocaust survivor. And he was my greatest teacher and he loved life and showed me Yeah, we’re not what happens to us. We can all get past what happens to us.


James Nathan 2:50  Well, my grandmother was in Auschwitz from for four years ago. She was so I’m a grandchild of a Holocaust survivor.


Madeleine Black 2:59 Second generation survivor, yeah.


James Nathan 3:00 Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the world is full of horrible things. But you’ve been through one which, you know, I you would never wish on anybody. Take us back in time a bit. Tell us a bit about your story.


Madeleine Black 3:12 Well, yes, as you said at the start, it starts when I was 13. I had a friend at school. We both did what most normal teenagers did. We planned a night out without telling our parents where we were staying how her mom was away. So we lied about where we were staying. We stayed at her grandma’s. We’re meant to be at Grandma’s and we stayed at her mom’s empty flight. And we managed to buy a bottle of vodka. I was obviously never drunk before. half the size I am known. It didn’t take me long to get drunk. We were in a local cafe and we were been kicked out and two of the young men from our table took us back to her mom’s empty flats. And it just became clear really quickly that they weren’t there to let me slip off the alcohol you know, take me out of the clothes I’ve been sick and or put me in the bed to sleep off the you know became very good. They were there for something else.


James Nathan 4:02 And a 13 you wouldn’t have a clue what to do with that.


Madeleine Black 4:05 No. And when I fought back, the violence actually escalated. So then I just went into freeze mode, which is there’s very loads of different ways to respond. And I just thought it’s just easier just to let them do whatever they want and just get over and done with Well, I wasn’t really aware my body just took over when the trauma came. And sure, of course, and, and you held this secret for years and years. I did, but I didn’t go public with it for years. Some people knew but only a few people, but they didn’t really know all the details. You know, really, it was my shame that silence me and shame is such a hard emotion to walk through because I really believed that people would see me how I saw myself for years, which was worthless and dirty and contaminated. And I thought all my shame told me that they wouldn’t want to know me, but my shame robs me of yours because you have to really step into your Shame to be able to get rid of your save if that makes sense. And once I cracked the shame, I don’t care who knows anymore. It feels there’s more of me has shown up. There’s more of me that the shame held back.


James Nathan 5:14 And is that because you thought people would think less of you?


Madeleine Black 5:17 Absolutely. Well, we live in a society where there’s so much you know, victim blaming rape culture. What are you wearing? What were you drinking? What did you expect all of that? And it’s such a personal crime against a body that we just or I could speak for myself. I just turned it internal.


James Nathan 5:36 Sure, and what made you become…. what made you go public with it? What changed?


Madeleine Black 5:41 Yeah, it was a gradual thing. I was contacted by the Forgiveness Project, which is a project in London and Marina wanted to share my story online. She collects stories of forgiveness on her website, as well as lots of other important work that they do. And I was just tired of being ashamed. I thought I should be ashamed for a crime that was committed against me. I’ve got nothing to be ashamed about. It took me a long time to get to that place. And I decided to share my story publicly. I’m not saying that was an easy decision. And I’m not saying I wasn’t terrified when I sent it out to the world, but it has been the best thing I’ve ever done.


James Nathan 6:21 When, when, let me just put my teeth back in and step back a second… You talked about the Forgiveness Project and forgiving the men who did this to you. But listening to stories like this, it’s very difficult to understand how you can get to a position where you can actually forgive someone. You mentioned the Holocaust, you know, with the 75th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz this week, and you know, there are many, many survivors from from that experience who have found a way to forgive the people who perpetrated those crimes. But how do you do that? How can you forgive such an evil thing?


Madeleine Black 7:00 Well, I never set out to forgive them, I was full of hate and anger and revenge and plotted fantasies in my head to get back at them, really put them through what they put me through. But then I saw, holding on to all that anger, they have no idea. It was only harming me and my husband and my kids that I struggled to have for years because I thought giving birth was going to be like being raped again. But I reversed that decision and have three gorgeous girls. But it really wasn’t an overnight thing. It was a process. During my last lot of therapy, my eldest daughter, Anna turned 13, and my memories just came flooding back. Very near to the end of those three years, my therapist suggested to me that maybe they weren’t born rapists. And that just sent me on this journey of inquiry. You know, I really wanted to understand well, how could they know to be so violent towards someone else because they weren’t much older than me, maybe 17 or 18. And I really believe that we are all born equal, that we’re all born a blank sheet. My friend Anne, who was a midwife told me something years ago, and I always held on to it. She told me that she delivered thousands of babies and she’d never met an evil one. And I do believe that we’re all born the same, so I wondered what they had seen or heard or experienced. And somehow I started to feel compassion in my heart towards them, because they, they have to live with what they did to me. And I can’t imagine that would be easy. But forgiveness really wasn’t, it wasn’t for them. It was for me, it had nothing to do with them. It was a decision I could make internally, inside my heart and it allowed me to let go of the negative feelings that I felt, all the hate and the revenge and it allowed me to accept all that was done and just let it go.


James Nathan 8:48 So was that a process to you forgive yourself first?


Madeleine Black 8:51 Absolutely. Just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time and being a naive 13 year old, but I for years, I blamed myself. I thought it was my fault.


James Nathan 9:00 Well, goodness you know turn the clock back, some of the things that we do as children are completely ridiculous because we’re children and you know putting yourself into that position, well, did you know of course not it was just a set of circumstances but I love the position you’ve got to now. I’m fascinated by the strength that you found within it but also the passion to help others. What are you doing now? Because I know once you’ve gone on to the Forgiveness Project website, all sorts of things start to change for you didn’t they?


Madeleine Black 9:34 It did yeah, it just opened up these doors, which I didn’t really imagine would open to me. People invited me to share my story. And I went to share my story and so many people every time I speak will share their story with me maybe not publicly but in the break or at the end, they’ll asked me some questions. And I just saw exactly what Marina who is the founder of the Forgiveness Project meant when she calls us story healers, rather than storytellers, and I believe the narratives are healing narratives that come from when we share our story, you know, somebody’s hearing a story at the right time in their life can completely set them onto their own healing journey. And I just really now don’t speak out for me anymore. I just speak out for others and what it can do for them.


James Nathan 10:21 It’s an interesting phenomenon, I think, where you you start to share a story of your own and other people come to talk to you. Are they just people who’ve experienced the same kind of sexual violence or it it other kinds as well that come to talk to you?


Madeleine Black 10:36 All kinds. So I was lucky enough to have done a TEDx in June last year. And just yesterday I had a message from someone because at the end of it, it’s about letting go and he said I realise I’ve been holding on to all this anger about a business deal with somebody scammed me for years and I saw what you can let go of, he said, I’ve got to let it goes damaging me and you know, my mindset’s all full. I never intended that, to you know, to reach a person like that. You never know where the ripples go, so on the whole, it is people that have experienced sexual violence. But yeah, we never know where where the ripples go and we speak out and who hears it.


James Nathan 11:15 When you talk to these people and I know resilience is a word that comes up when when people mention you. What does resilience mean in that context?


Madeleine Black 11:24 Well, I don’t really like to think that I’m superhuman or I don’t have any superpowers, I think we are all…. can tap into our resilience, you know, we’re all so much stronger than we think we are. And it just got to a place where I just I guess it got really stubborn, just refused to be dragged down by my past or identified by what had happened to me and I was just determined to live my life as best as I could. And like I say, my Dad was a great teacher. He lost his parents, his brothers and sisters, his youngest brother Mordechai was just six when he was gassed, but I saw that, you know, if he can get get past all of that having a whole family murdered surely I can get past this as well. So he really helped me a lot by how he lived his life.


James Nathan 12:10 The stories that come out of the Shoah, out of the Holocaust are unimaginable. When you talk about a six year old being murdered, most of us get….. you get a tingle in your spine that of just almost disbelief. And but then, you know, you see the strength that comes from someone like your father, like my grandmother like anyone who survived that kind of thing. And we do look to them and think you must be stronger than than a normal person. Do people have that attitude to you? There must be something special about you that makes you strong.


Madeleine Black 12:49 They do, they think I’m brave and courageous and yes, I guess it took a bit of courage to start, but I don’t want to be considered brave. I want it to be normal that we can speak about the difficult things That, you know, people should be disturbed because it is disturbing that everywhere on our planet somewhere a man or woman or child will be abused or raped, we need to find a way to stop this. So I don’t think I am superhuman, I think I’ve just tapped into the residence that’s within all of us, we can all find our strength and courage.


James Nathan 13:20 But how do you? How do you find that resilience? How do you how do you find the courage to be bigger or better or different to how you have been?


Madeleine Black 13:28 Always, I don’t like to call it stepping out of my comfort zone but stretching my comfort zone, just challenging myself. When I saw really, because fear was my friend for years, you know, fear and I just worked side by side for a long time and it really held me back. I was scared of everything. Everything I did came from a fear place. And I saw that fear was my imagination. You know it was all based on what had happened to me, all based on what could happen. So I set out to challenge my fears which were mainly my safety being around men being out of control, and I’ve put myself into situations that would normally I would never have done, lots of different things. And that really showed me that, yeah, we make up a lot of stuff. We it’s our, it’s our negative chatter internally that can run the show, and we have to sometimes not listen to our mind.


James Nathan 14:23 So you worked as a psychotherapist for a very long time, and then you stopped doing that recently or you’re certainly doing less of that. Has that helped?


Madeleine Black 14:32 Being a psychotherapist?


James Nathan 14:34 Yeah.


Madeleine Black 14:35 Yeah, well, I understand trauma personally, and I understand it professionally. I know. You know, biologically what it does to us physically. And yes, it helps them yes, it doesn’t, because we’re all my memories came back. I just refused to believe them. Now I can see I was caught in denial. My therapist said didn’t come anywhere near to my own journey. I was just went to my own therapist and was complaining and moaning for years that this couldn’t have happened, if it had happened, I would remember it, you know, what if it was so bad, but as a therapist, I understand our mind shuts down trauma. And it comes back when it thinks we’re ready to face it, whether I agree with that or not. So it was interesting that all my training just went straight out the window when it was personal.


James Nathan 15:19 Well, it’s very, very difficult to look at ourselves isnt it, or certainly at the depth that you need to. Obviously, you’ve gone through something which I said before, you know, you would, you’d never wish on anybody. Most of us have had something go on in our lives. Everyone has a story to tell. In business, though, you know, you mentioned that that example earlier, sometimes the choices we make are the things that we shy from a much, much smaller or may feel a little bit less important. Are there lessons that that people can draw from your experience in what a sort of more normal issues in life?


Madeleine Black 15:58 Absolutely. So really sharing my story for anyone to really be able to find their voice. Because I think when we find our voice, we really hold ourselves back. But if we can speak whatever it is we have to speak, speak our truth, then we really do stand in our power. And as I’ve said, already, we can, we’re all stronger. We just have to believe that and tap into it and find a way to access that strength within.


James Nathan 16:25 So what are some of the ways that people can do that?


Madeleine Black 16:28 Well, I really had to see what I was doing. You know, we get so caught up with whatever we’re doing that it becomes automatic. So I put myself into these situations that would have terrified me, so I was terrified of the dark. So I would start running in the dark. I couldn’t even put my wheelie bin down the end of my garden if my husband Steven was away. I went to my first karate class at 41, because the night It happened to me, I also left my body so I had to find ways for me to get back into my body. So I’ve used sports a lot. But also lots of different types of therapies and finding my voice, speaking out. Stepping into that shame place has been the only thing that’s cracked my shame.


James Nathan 17:13 To people, who are hearing what you’re saying, with those tribulations of life, how do you step into that sort of thing? How do you decide, right? I’m going to take this on, I’m going to find the courage to face these fears.


Madeleine Black 17:30 Do the very thing that you think you can’t do? Put yourself into situations. I mean, I decided I would never become a mom. And when I met my husband, Steven, he was fine with that. And then he asked me, we’d been married a few years and I just thought if I don’t do it, then they’ve won. I’m handing them all my power and control over me, over to them and they’ve got no idea so I…. there was something in me that always drove me to clean up, to eventually face everything that I had done. So I guess it does take courage to really look at the things that we don’t want to look at. And we all know what they are, we all push them out of our consciousness, but they’re always hovering in the background, things that aren’t processed or aren’t cleaned up. And so by stepping into the things that terrified me is actually what grew me.


James Nathan 18:16 But when you when you say that, I mean, it’s, it’s much easier to say them to do to do the thing that you’re scared of, or the thing that fears you. What help did you have?


Madeleine Black 18:26 So much help? So many help. And ironically, most of the helpers have been men. So it’s men who very nearly killed me, and it is men who’s really saved me. So I went to talking therapy, I’ve had lots of different kinds of alternative therapies, lots of body therapies. I’ve seen a shaman, I’ve gone to a teacher for many, many years, for about 15 years. And he, who was the man who encouraged me to write my story down, and I said, no way. There’s no way I’m gonna let you read it or anyone else read it. And it took about four years for me to write my story down and he shared it at one of his seminars. And then he asked if he could share my story. And I allow him, it took me a lot of courage to allow them to do that. And what I didn’t know was that he also let people read, which I had written, and I thought I could never come back. I was so mortified that all these people now knew. But I thought that’s, that’s the shame. Again, it’s easy to run away. So I went back to another seminar, which was in Cork in Ireland. And when I walked in, I just felt so exposed and vulnerable, as if I was naked. And I thought, well, they can’t know anything worse about me now. And that really helped to… that’s when I talk about stepping into the shame, it was just one of the examples how it helped to just crack that shame that had held on to me for so long. What I also didn’t know was that he told everybody to leave me alone, to show me some respect, not just speak to me about it. So when I walked in, everybody kind of looked down at their feet and nobody said a word to me, but near to the end as a four day workshop, people slowly started to share their own stories with me or share incidents where they were, they couldn’t forgive or they couldn’t let go. And then I got more evidence of how powerful it is when we share our stories. And from that, it led onto me writing my memoir, Unbroken. I just decided to write all of my story down one day, and all of a sudden, it was like 70,000 words appeared. So I know, putting it all down on paper and publishing a book is… now my story’s gone out there now and I really don’t care who knows and I will be contacted every day by a reader or someone that’s heard me speak somewhere. So I just see the, you know, the power that comes when we share our stories.


James Nathan 20:43 Were you surprised by how normal people were when you told the story? Were you expecting them to treat you in a certain way that they didn’t?


Madeleine Black 20:51 Yeah, I thought people would be disgusted. I thought there you know, they wouldn’t want to know me. But what I’m learning sadly, is my story is so common, you know, it’s so, so common, I may be fortunate it was only a one off event. I’ve met so many people that have read some chapters, for example, I write about three other times when I was raped as well. But I didn’t really realise until I wrote the book, more what we would call date rapes. And it’s not about comparison, because all rape is a violation. But one woman told me that she would wake up at three in the morning with her husband having sex with her. And I said, well, that’s not sex, that’s rape. If you’re if you’ve not consented, that’s not sex. You’re not an equal partner. And that’s, you know, there’s no consent there is rape, and she’d never looked at it like that. She thought it was a normal part of her married life that he would just take it whenever he wanted it, whether she was awake or not.


James Nathan 21:43 Right. I’m absolutely flabbergasted with that. I think, you know, but then then you hear… and I don’t mean to laugh. It’s just it’ just the surprise me I guess that, that someone would treat somebody else as a chattel rather than a than a human being.


Madeleine Black 22:00 So many people are treated so badly by so many other people. And I know but I really do think that hurt people hurt people. So I’m another reason why to share our stories is that you know, some people connect to their own stuff and realise that they can heal themselves as well, whatever their story is.


James Nathan 22:18 There’s a lot of talk about, about the reason behind, the reason why people commit crimes. And often you mentioned it, sort of, it’s come from a previous experience of theirs. Is that a cycle that that’s breaking? Is that a cycle that’s getting better? Or is it still the same problem it’s always been?


Madeleine Black 22:39 It’s really hard to know, isn’t it? Because of #MeToo so many people share this story in the social media world, especially on Twitter. So are more people speaking out now or are more people reporting or is it getting worse, it doesn’t feel like it’s getting better to be honest.


James Nathan 22:56 Sometimes I wonder if it’s it’s not that it’s not getting better, as the More people are talking. And so the you know, it’s like the people we’re talking about, I was recently speaking with people about autism and that cases of autism are increasing. Well, they’re not but diagnosis is increasing. And I think if it was something like this perhaps if, you know, if there’s more and more cases coming to light, or more and more people sharing the experiences, the negative experiences, they’ve had that that’s a good thing. But it’s bringing it into the open so the stats will be higher. But the the social change is bigger.


Madeleine Black 23:33 Yeah, we need to, we need to really shift this mindset that society has, the rape culture, the victim blaming, you know, when somebody goes to sit as a member on a jury, for example, we can’t be naive to think that that jury isn’t persuaded by thoughts they’ve already bought in. All the victim blaming it stacks up against the person who’s been the victim. You know, we can’t be naive to think that they’re not thinking oh, well, what did she expect? She was drinking, she went up to the hotel room, blah, blah, were influenced by all of these messages that were fed. And in our music and in our films, it’s everywhere, victim blaming.


James Nathan 24:12 Music and film, you mentioned it because a lot of…. there’s some very violent messages that come through and video games is that something that needs addressing in society?


Madeleine Black 24:23 Yeah, you know, I do a lot of radio shows, and I was speaking at BBC Radio Humberside, and there were about four people in the studio. One of them was a vicar, Vicar Becky. And she told us that she goes into schools and boys as young as eight years old have accessed porn on their smartphones. And I was really horrified, eight years old. So there’s a lot of young people are getting their sex education from porn and they think it’s normal, not to kiss a partner when they’re having sex or for that partner to be crying as well. So yeah, it needs some serious education out there.


James Nathan 24:59 Sorry, I went quiet because I’m thinking about my children and their smartphones, my daughter’s 11. And she’s just got a smartphone for her birthday. And, you know, it’s all been very exciting. And, you know, the first thing we did was, you know, before she was given it was clamped it down, you set everything so that so that she hasn’t access to different things. And you know, she wants an app, we have to agree it, well, my son’s 13 and he’s, you know, we’ve been through all that with him, but he can’t access that sort of stuff. It’s just not possible. And it makes me wonder what parents are doing when they… or are kids are so smart. They can get around these things.


Madeleine Black 25:40 You know, some parents maybe aren’t as tech savvy as you are, or don’t even think about that possibility. You know, maybe a little bit of naivety, but or they look at it on someone else’s phone that doesn’t have the strict settings.


James Nathan 25:52 And you mentioned pornography there and people’s sex education from coming from porn, that just fills me with horror because You know, as an adult, you look at that sort of thing and it will if you choose to watch that kind of video, that’s your choice, but it’s not real. But eight year olds don’t know what’s real until… if they’re shown something they just expected is. That access to porn must have changed a lot about the way society works.


Madeleine Black 26:21 Here we have this powerful computer in our hand. You know, most people rely on their phones, even for business, they’ll do all their posting and emails from their phone. And so it’s, it’s a very powerful thing. Yes, I was really shocked when I heard that statistic. I didn’t think it was as young as eight years old. It really shocked me.


James Nathan 26:39 I’m really surprised because I’m not sure what an eight year old wants with it anyway.


Madeleine Black 26:44 Even if they don’t understand the porn, the message that it’s degrading women basically, that’s really what it’s about, the degradation and the messages that they’re picking up from. It is really appalling.


James Nathan 26:57 People cry out about, you know, any kind of any of negative thing in the press or anything that in on social media whether you know it’s racism or sexism or whatever it might be but the porn industry seems to be almost allowed to sort of run free, why is that?


Madeleine Black 27:17 Oh no, there are anti porn sites and there are a lot of people trying to end the demand, prostitution there is a lot going on, it just I guess it just depends where you put your attention. There’s a lot of links to porn and sexual violence.


James Nathan 27:32 No, I just well, obviously I’m, not obviously but I I clearly I’m not searching for the right stuff. Or maybe I am searching for the right stuff. What can what can parents do then? So looking at your kids as they’re growing up? What can we do to help them be better and broader and more rounded individuals.


Madeleine Black 27:52 I think really, that parents, schools, nurseries, that we need to start educating our young people from a very, very young age about consent and I don’t just mean within a sexual relationship, consent about is okay, would you like to… you know because I was forced you know to go and give my grandpa or a kiss or my grandma or this Auntie, to check with your child you know if that’s okay if they want to do that we need to teach them about respect, what a healthy relationship looks like and I think that will be a way forward because we don’t we’re not really taught these things but consent in all issues is so important.


James Nathan 28:30 You know, there’s a lot of things you’ve said there sparked my my mind and drawn back memories or made me think of different things. But I, you know, I remember very, very clearly going to see my grandparents and having to give everyone in the room a kiss when I went to bed, and it never struck me till now as perhaps that wasn’t a good thing.


Madeleine Black 28:49 Sitting on Santa’s knee. I mean, really do most children want to do that or they’re just forced to go and do that.


James Nathan 28:55 You know, my kids wouldn’t go near Santa, they thought he was the most frightening looking thing, much to their Mum’s dismay. To me it wasn’t such a problem but she was really disappointed.


Madeleine Black 29:07 But that’s great, that they trust their guts and trust that instinct and I think that’s what we need to go back to as well to learn to listen to our bodies because we often get the message that it doesn’t feel quite right but we’re polite. You know, I’m British, so we just go along with stuff as well because we don’t want to be, appear to be rude but if we really listen to our gut and our instincts, our body often gives us warning signals that you know, this just doesn’t feel okay.


James Nathan 29:31 Yeah, and you say British and there’s obviously a cultural element to a lot of this. A girl I went to university with was from Singapore and she never went back after uni because the culture around her family there was such that she didn’t feel she could have a voice. And I wonder, you know how often we make excuses for ourselves? Well, as you know, so British we just don’t say these things. And, actually, no, we should. sit


Madeleine Black 29:58 Absolutely.


James Nathan 29:59 Look its great chatting with you. I’m so so delighted you’ve been able to take the time and to come and talk. And I’m really, really pleased how well your speaking career is going. And what I’d love to do, I’m going to put a link to the TEDx because I think that’s an incredibly powerful, powerful few minutes of talking, but also to Unbroken which, which is the book you released a few years ago.


Madeleine Black 30:22 Three years ago


James Nathan 30:23 Three years ago, well, so it’s not so long after all. Madeleine, I’d love you to leave our listeners with just a thought, a big idea or a golden nugget, something that they can do now to make their lives better for today, but also better for the years to come. What would that be?


Madeleine Black 30:41 So, I’m always looking for evidence of why I’m why I speak. And I was given some massive evidence. I was very lucky. I was interviewed by Sir Trevor McDonald, to cut a very long story short, my friend’s Mum had been listening. And basically she ended 64 years of her silence after she heard me on the radio that morning. And my friend says there’s every chance you would have taken her story to the grave with her. So I would like to say to anyone out there who’s listening, whatever their story is never too late to find your voice. It’s never too late to go and get some help, get some support for whatever the issue is because it will hold you back from living your fullest, most courageous, bravest life ever. So find someone to speak to, who doesn’t have to be a therapist, find someone that you trust. And if you can’t find someone, tell yourself your story. Write your story down for you. But you need to shift it to change the energy inside and break your silence.


James Nathan 31:37 Perfect, perfect way to finish Thank you, Madeleine so, so much.


Madeleine Black 31:41 You’re welcome.



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