S3E5 The Celebrating the Differences Edition with Trish Driver
James chats with Trish Driver (pronouns she/ her), a Diversity and Inclusion and Culture Change Strategist with experience through the end to end talent management cycle. She has worked with organisations as diverse as Capgemini, Salesforce, Audible, NTT Data and Bauer Media, both in-house, and as a consultant, designing and implementing inclusive talent management practices and driving true culture change.
A qualified coach, her collaborative style means that she works in true partnership with all of her consultancy clients to create impactful outcomes for their businesses.
Trish is the Founder and CEO of A New Normal Ltd, a diversity and inclusion consultancy, founded to drive social change through impacting the world of business. Her goals are to support businesses, academic organisations and not for profits in achieving sustainable cultural change around inclusion and diversity. The business is founded on the pillars of passion for her subject, genuine expertise, creative problem solving and authenticity. She’s a coach, mentor, and keynote speaker on diversity, inclusion and bias.
Phone: +44 (0)7894 709 548
James Nathan 0:54 Hello and welcome to The Only One Business show with me your host James Nathan and today I’ve got a wonderful guest for you. This person is a diversity, inclusion and cultural change strategist with experience through the end to end talent management cycle. She’s worked with exalt organisations as diverse as Capgemini, Salesforce, Audible, NTT Data, and Bauer Media, designing and implementing inclusive talent management practices, and driving true cultural change. Her collaborative style means that she works in real partnership with all her consultancy clients to create impactful outcomes for their business. She’s now the founder and CEO of A New Normal, a diversity and inclusion consultancy founded to drive social change through impact in the world of business. The goals are to support businesses, academic organisations and not for profits in achieving sustainable cultural change around inclusion and diversity. The business is founded on her pillars of real genuine passion for the subject, an absolute interest, creative problem solving and authenticity. She’s a coach, mentor and keynote speaker on diversity inclusion and bias. Please welcome Trish Driver. Trish. How are you?
Trish Driver 2:06
I’m good. Thank you, James. I feel like you need to lie down after that introduction.
James Nathan 2:11 Well, you’ve been a busy person. It’s so nice to get you on the phone. And it’s also really nice to have someone in the studio today who’s actually just in Britain because a lot of the things I’ve been doing recently they were people overseas and I’ve been up and all sorts of times so, so lovely at 10 o’clock in the morning to talk to somebody. Trish, where are you today? You at home in Hampshire?
Trish Driver 2:34 I am. I am sitting at home in the office and I’m really revelling in the fact that for the first time in about a year it feels it’s not raining outside which is just a joy.
James Nathan 2:44 Spring is here. Definitely definitely. Although I just scraped frost off the car this morning. So its not quite as here as I’d like it to be. You’ve been a busy person in your life. Take us through it, well give us a little bit of background but how did you get to where you are now with A New Normal.
Trish Driver 3:01 So I spent the better part of 20 years or so working in corporates and with corporates, so either in house or as a consultant. And my career was really focused around talent management. So the end to end talent management lifecycle, which is all of that good stuff from branding and attraction all the way through recruitment, learning and development, and then how you make sure that when people leave, they go with a, with a spring in their step and joy and good feelings about your organisation. And so that end to end talent management piece, but also a lot around culture change. And, what I found over the duration of my career was that there was an element of diversity and inclusion in everything that I was doing and it grew more and more important as I worked through my career and I realised it was something that was really important to me on a personal level, as well as on a work level and I had a great opportunity whilst working with Capgemini to really put that into practice. And to work around what Capgemini does, or did with their approach to inclusion and diversity. And that was, that was really the most exciting job that I’d ever done in corporate. And I kept finding myself having these moments of going, oh, I should really do some work and then go, I am working, but it doesn’t feel like work. And so that was fantastic. And that really awakened this kind of, this thought process in me that had been brewing for quite a long time about, oh, actually, this is something that I really want to do. And I got to the end of the project that I was working on within Cap and, and went and did something else there. And all the while this idea was brewing, actually, this is something that I really want to do for other organisations and so started some conversations with a few different people and set up the business and yeah, haven’t really looked back since then. So now I spend all of my time every day doing what I love, which doesn’t very often feel like work, because I just love what I do. So I get to go and work with all of these different clients in different sectors. And so you obviously reeled off some of those at the beginning. And, and I think I’d had this preconception that I would, because I’d spent so much of my career working in and with tech companies that that would be where I would end up in the business. But actually, it’s been much more balanced than that. So we do work now with tech companies still. So I still have a little bit of my, my former history and what I’m doing now. But we also work with media companies. So you mentioned Bauer Media and Audible, and we’re just branching out into the not for profit sector as well. So it’s really, it’s really exciting. And I think the thing that I love about my work is that you can apply the same principles to all of these different organisations. But what we do is different for every single client that we work with.
James Nathan 5:46 You mentioned from a personal level, or there was there was a personal attachment to this, where does that come from?
Trish Driver 5:51 It’s um, it’s a really interesting thing, and I guess I’m kind of a big believer in, you know, our core values being really intrinsic to who we are. And I guess I was always brought up with that. That really important sense of fairness and justice. And I was really lucky whilst I was at Capgemini to go through a bit of a life changing experience, which sounds a bit like you’re over-egging it when you talk about it, but it was, it was a leadership development programme. And I kind of had this preconception in my mind that I was going on this programme and I was going to be moulded into the shape of leader. And actually, what happened was a lot to us about what’s really important for you as an individual, what are your values and how does that shape you as a leader. So it kind of grew to this realisation that actually equality is just really central to who I am as a person. And, because that’s so important to me, I’d never I’d never thought about the idea of being able to, to kind of take that and do that every day for what I do as a job. And so being able to do something that I’m really passionate about, that’s really important to me on a day to day basis. I guess it just comes back to that personal value. With fairness and justice.
James Nathan 7:03 When I talk to people about these things, and I think back into my recruitment career, and, you know, 20 years ago, I was meeting businesses who were talking about diversity as a part of their recruitment policy. And it was a bit of a hot potato, it was a buzzword back then it was a new thing. I don’t know why it was a new thing. But it was it was people were saying, Oh, you know, we must be diverse. And people saw that as a bit of a negative back then that almost it was, it was an anti recruitment policy. And you can only hire people if they fit it into a diversity model, rather than actually hiring the best people. Which always amazed me and now we’re talking about it still. Why are we still talking about it?
Trish Driver 7:42 That’s the million dollar question, James. And I think, you know, I still hear conversations along those lines, obviously, in the spaces that I work in the conversations that I have with people that there’s almost this perception that you can have the best person for the job or you can have diverse recruitment And the two are mutually exclusive. And that’s one of the things that kind of almost makes my head explode a little bit. For me, that is absolutely not the case. And I think about time and time again, the examples that I’ve seen have, were going out and recruiting from really diverse talent pools. And when I say diverse talent pools, I mean, for businesses to go and look in different places for people, because what you quite often find is that companies go well, you know, we have problems recruiting. And you know, we can’t even fill the roles that we have at the moment. And you know, so we can’t even talk about diversity because that’s going to narrow the pool down. And that’s absolutely not the case. What you can do by broadening your talent pools and looking in different places for people, is actually find, I would say A. much better talent and B. much more talent than you would originally find. But, you know, as human beings, we just have this programming around the safety bias of thinking, Well, you know, we’ve always done it this way. So this is the safest way to do it and everything else feels risky and scary and different. So I’m not going to do that unless I’m really pushed to do it. But if I think about some of the benefits that my clients and organisations that I’ve worked with have seen, it is absolutely phenomenal taking, for example, returnships. And so the returnship is something which was, I guess, initially born out of the financial sector, and taking people who’d had career breaks for whatever reason, and giving them an opportunity to step back in because, you’ll know this, James, from your recruitment background, a gap in somebody’s CV can be a bit of a kiss of death in some organisations. And so the financial sector was the first sector to tap into this really and say, this is potentially a group of people that we should think about getting back in touch with and bringing back into the workplace. And, PwC did a study a few years ago, which said that there’s around half a million economically inactive professional women in the UK who are on career breaks for whatever reason and 76% of those women want to get back into work. So you think about the size of that talent pool of professional women. And this study was done maybe three or four years ago. So that’s going to have grown in that time. And so whilst I was at Capgemini, I designed and set up their first returner programme, and I’d spent a lot of time talking to hiring managers, there about, you know, this real difficulty with finding good technical talent. And we opened up the opportunities for this programme. And within the first three weeks had 300 applications, which is kind of, it was more than I was expecting.
James Nathan 7:45 Yeah, yeah.
Trish Driver 8:02 And, and because I’m something of a control freak, I couldn’t just leave it to my team to get on with the screening. So I was kind of scrolling around in there in the CVS and having a look at what was in there. And I kid you not the first five CVs I opened had exactly the skill set that people were lamenting missing within their teams. So some really technical skills of people who’ve just taken a little bit of time out and think about the difference and I know now that Cap have continued to run that and are having great success with that programme. But there, you know, there’s often quite a lot of resistance within organisations when it comes to…. when it comes to that talent pool or looking at people with careers break. And again, it’s it’s around this safety bias of we want people to show that they have worked consistently for the last however many years and we’re nervous when we see a career break. But by thinking in that way organisations are missing out.
James Nathan 11:27 Well, you mentioned narrowing the pool down before that if you were recruiting diversity, sorry, if you were using diversity as one of the measures for your recruitment policy that you are narrowing the pool. I mean, that’s gonna be the opposite, doesn’t it? If you remove any bias or unconscious bias, then your pool becomes bigger? How much unconscious bias is that? Could you mentioned the returning mum thing you know, I was sitting in a cafe last week waiting for someone to have a coffee with and behind me were two women and they were, for want of a better word bitching about how difficult it was getting back into work in the businesses, which they had actually just gone on maternity leave from, they hadn’t left. They’d taking normal time out if we were have a baby, you know spend time doing the things that most people, you know, would relish be able to do with it young family, but then going back into work was becoming a difficulty for them. And I found that quite amazing. But why is that? So, let’s go back into the bias part of that. Yeah. How does that affect normal businesses? And why is it well, how does it? How does it come out in day to day life?
Trish Driver 12:34 I think I mean, the really interesting thing about bias, James, because I do quite a lot of work around supporting my clients with stripping out some of that bias. You say those two words together unconscious bias, and people immediately get this haunted look on their face like they’re about to be told off for something. But bias in and of itself is just, it’s just a function of who we are as human beings and it’s an evolutionary tool and we’ve evolved to kind of make these quick links rather than needing to re evaluate every detail of something. And that’s really helpful from an evolutionary perspective, because it helps us to kind of steer away from the things that are dangerous and towards the things that are safe. So we need to recognise that everybody has bias. We carry it around with us all the time. But it’s not helpful when it comes to work. And what it does at work is it encourages us to stick to the same patterns, and to recruit people who we feel remind us of ourselves in some way. And if you think about some of the imbalances around, you know, taking gender as an example, some of the imbalances around gender in terms of levels in businesses, then the natural thing that you’re going to get is senior people at the top of the business thinking I need to recruit people who are like me, so people who are really committed and when you say the word committed, I don’t know what pops into your head. But if you’re, quite often, people who have had a career break are maybe perceived as being slightly less committed than others, which is absolute nonsense, because I look at the people that came through this retention programme, and actually it wasn’t just women who were coming back through, there were a lot of men in that group as well he taken time out. And, but it’s just kind of, it’s thinking about things in a different way. And what quite often happens when we’re recruiting people into businesses is that we think, well, okay, I know, I know this, this vacancy has been created by somebody leaving my team, what I need is exactly what that person was. So I need them to operate in the same way I need them to have exactly the same skills, exactly the same knowledge, exactly the same experience. I just want a carbon copy of that person because that feels safe because you you know that that person worked in that role. But that’s quite a limiting belief to carry around even at a subconscious level with ourselves.
James Nathan 14:45 Well, it’s safe and it’s also it’s lazy and easy, isn’t it? You know, if I know that, you know, I think back to, you know, looking at criteria for people for roles and you know, that simple stuff of they must have a degree from this kind of university and blah, blah, blah. And you look at and think, well, that’s just a really easy way. But it’s making an assumption that if you’ve got a degree from that particular University, then you are a better candidate than somebody who has a different degree from elsewhere. Now, that is breaking down, certainly because…. because it should. I’m also still still seeing clients who are who are very wedded to that kind of previous thought process. And then they in the same breath, talk about well, you know, we want to we want to have a diverse workforce. And you know, we don’t we know that diversity isn’t just skin colour, it’s everything else. And when people talk about diversity and inclusion, the two words go together all the time. But for people listening who aren’t quite sure, what is the difference? What do they mean?
Trish Driver 15:49 And that’s another great question. And it’s one of those ones I think we, because you are so used to hearing them together over and over again. And people almost use them like they’re they’re interchangeable or they mean the same thing. So, for me, I would say diversity is all of those different things that make us different from one another. And for me, all of those things that bring value, I guess, you know, even more in the media sector where I’m working, but also from a tech perspective, a lot of what companies are looking for his creativity, and they want that innovation, and the ability to think differently about problems that that are going on within their business. So that diversity is that difference of thought and that difference of experience and background that sparks something in that creativity there. And so diversity is that difference, and inclusion is the way that you make that difference work together. I think the other thing that I would say about inclusion is that quite a lot of the time people tend to equate inclusion with an absence of exclusion.
James Nathan 16:50 Right
Trish Driver 16:50 Which, for me, is absolutely not correct, because if you think about the experience of somebody who’s in an underrepresented group, they are going to need something a lot more than an absence of exclusion to make them feel like they belong somewhere. So if you think about some statistics around this. There’s been some some really sad research around the fact that was one in four of us will experience poor mental health at some point, only half of us will share that with our workplace. And if you think about some research that was done by Stonewall in the last couple of years. Over 60% of graduates who were out at university as either lesbian, gay or bisexual, went back into the closet when they started their first job. And if you think about those two examples, which on the face of it might seem quite different, those individuals are not choosing not to disclose because they are seeing proactive signs that they will be excluded because that’s just illegal. But they’re not feeling those really proactive signs that they are welcome and they will be supported and it is safe to be who they are at work. So for me that inclusion really has to be something very active, it can’t be passive. And it can’t be something that’s in an IS THAT IS JUST implied or kind of under the surface or as explained away as an absence of exclusion, you have to be really proactive about it.
James Nathan 18:11 I really, I mean, when you when you mentioned that kind of sexual orientation at work and being kind of wary of just being yourself I guess, I mean, I understand it. You know, I’m a Jewish boy, I’m not a religious man, but, but I’ve come across plenty of bias in my life. And so quite often, you still feel yourself, I mean, nearly 50 years old holding your tongue and go, oh, hang on a second. Let’s just see what my audience is before I tell them who I am. And I think that’s really sad. I mean, I know that, you know, I don’t do that. But I’ve felt it certainly in the past, and I see it in businesses I go into, but I also don’t see it in the younger businesses. Is there a gender difference? Sorry. I’ll ask that question again. Is there a generational difference?
Trish Driver 19:03 And I think that there is a generational difference. And that’s certainly something that I perceive with the different demographics within a business. But I think if you consider that the majority of businesses within the UK will have that full spectrum, we are part of an ageing population. And so what you quite often see is yes, the younger generation, I definitely don’t put myself there anymore. But the younger generation will have much higher expectations from a company that they’re going to work with about inclusion, about the way people are treated, about openness. And I think sometimes that can be a bit of a shock coming up against traditionally an older generation who are more likely to be in those leadership positions. So I think from a generational perspective it’s something that we have to wrap our heads around because there is that expectation coming up and that can cause real challenges from it from a cultural perspective. So it’s, it’s a, I think, as well as the generational piece. It’s about kind of who holds the power in that organisation as well. And we were talking a lot with our clients, especially this year around power and privilege at work. And I think this, this term privileges are so loaded. It’s another one of those words that you start talking about it and people kind of shrink back a little bit. And but I think for me, it’s….. it is, you know, privilege is really important. You can’t have a conversation about inclusion without having that and I will put my hands up and say, I am straight. I’m cisgender. So I’m not trans. I’m white, I’m middle class. I have so much privilege, so much privilege, that I need to recognise that everybody’s experience is not the same as mine. And so I’ve never experienced you know, as, as some of my friends who are part of the LGBT community have that experience of holding hands with the person you love in the street and being abused for it. I’ve never experienced that. And it’s really important I think to kind of, I guess see privileges as almost blinkers. That’s how when there’s a great blogger called Franchesca Ramsey, and that’s how she talks about it blinkers. So the horses who are wearing those blinkers, they can see all the stuff that’s in front of them. That’s great. They see loads of stuff there. But there’s a whole load of stuff going on either side of them that is just never perceived by them. So they’ve got these blinkers on. And I like that as an analogy for privilege. Because if we’re going to, if we’re going to start having these meaningful conversations at work, we have to be mindful of how our experience relates to that of other people, because otherwise, we’re never going to create those workplaces where everyone can be themselves.
James Nathan 21:36 You talk…. when you talk initially and we read those company names, I mean, those are big, multinational, multicultural businesses. Most businesses aren’t most businesses are small. Most businesses don’t I mean, I when you start talking about provision, it’s where my mind my thought process coming from, I suddenly thought white privilege then I thought, America then I thought America’s race problems. Then that’s impacted, obviously, because the world is, you know, connected. And so we we pick up these things from each other. So something that’s potentially a bigger problem in one country isn’t necessarily as big a problem here. And the big companies will certainly, feel that much bigger, bigger than the smaller ones. But when I say that, then I start to question myself and actually say, well, actually, no, you know, I went to a private school, I went to university my dad’s a doctor, my mom’s a psychologist. The expectation of me was that I would go to Uni and I would become professional. You know, for my entire life. I’ve had that. But in a lot of society, most of society, that’s not the case. Do we sit in a bubble? Do we just, do we…. obviously we look at the world through our own eyes and we perceive it the way we see it, but are we missing something by doing that?
Trish Driver 22:55 I love that you use the word bubble there, James because that’s the other way I, I talk about em privilege, it’s kind of you sit inside your own little bubble of your own experiences and, and coming back to the example of, you know, the friends of mine who’ve been abused on the street for just, you know, my friend was abused for holding hands with her wife. And I was explaining that story to another one of my friends who is a straight white guy in his 30s. And he, he couldn’t actually process what I was saying to him. He said, You don’t mean she got abused on the street? You mean she got some grief on Twitter, because inside his bubble, we’re not only his own experiences and how, you know, he lives his life and he’s never experienced that kind of thing, but also his values as well. But that would be the absolute last thing that would cross his mind as a reaction. So he couldn’t even quite process that that had happened to somebody else. So I think we, you know, we are inside our own bubbles of experience. And I think we do we have we have problems when we when we don’t step outside of those because you have to understand the perspectives of other people and I still find even doing this work and having done this work for a number of years now that I’m still, I’m still learning that there are other things, I thought my blinkers were gone. But there are still other blinkers that I hadn’t realised was still there that were obstructing a bit of my vision. So, my very relevant example this week is that I am doing some work for client, we’re looking at the experience of different people in their business. And we were looking at a survey that they’ve run for their people. And I was looking at the experience of parents versus non parents. And actually, what occurred to me at the end of this week, having parented my two kids solo, whilst my other half spin away on a business trip, was we really need to look at the experience of the single parents versus the parents who are in a partnership of some kind, because, James, I’m almost dead by the end of this week. And that experience, you kind of think parenthood is the same thing regardless of how you do it.
James Nathan 24:51 It’s really laughing because I know exactly what you are talking about.
Trish Driver 24:54 Definitely not. They’ve broken my spirit this weekend.
But I think You know, those, we have to kind of keep stepping outside of our bubble. And that’s, you know, that’s a bit of a light hearted example. But we have to keep stepping outside of it. So I had another really stark experience a few years ago in my career that’s really stuck with me when I was working with a large tech company, and we ran a hackathon for members of the trans community, and it was an incredible day. And all of these people coming together to work on a shared purpose about tools and applications that can make things better for the trans community, which is, frankly, one of the most marginalised and abused groups in society. And I’d never, I’d never kind of put myself in that situation, but seeing some of the work that they were doing that day. So there was an amazing app called Twilight People, which is for trans people of faith, who’d been excluded from their religions but still needed to feel that sense of connection and community so that this this team was designing an app and I thought, you know, I’m not religious. myself, but I can understand how painful that must be to be excluded from something that’s meant so much to you because you’re being yourself. And there was another team that were creating an app to show safe bathrooms in a city. I can’t even wrap my head around that, you know, not feeling like you can’t walk in to a bathroom. Because you fear what’s going to happen as a result of that. And it was it was kind of this day of just shattering and destroying the blinkers from around the outside. And I think we’ve we’ve all got a responsibility, we really want to see things change, to do as much as we can educate ourselves about the perspectives and experiences of other people.
James Nathan 26:41 I was about to talk about understanding because a lot of bias comes from just not knowing and fear of differences and what have you. But then, and I think if we start on that line, but we’ll talk for another half an hour at least on that. Where did your business start? If I’m sitting in my office today, I’m listening to you speaking. I’m getting do you know what? I don’t think I’ve got any bias, but maybe I do, you know, is this business as inclusive as it should be? Or how do we….? Where do you start to think about how do you start to sit down analyse where you are, so you can start to think about where you want to be.
Trish Driver 27:14 I am, I always say with my clients, and you know, having said that everybody’s very different, I think the starting point always needs to be quite similar. And so I think, you know, the first thing that’s really important is for a company to baseline where they are. And I think they there’s some really useful ways of doing that. So from a demographic perspective, understanding kind of what does your population look like, from all of the different characteristics, so all of the protected characteristics, but I would always include social mobility with that as well. And, and understanding from just from a demographic perspective, but then I think you also need to do a piece of work alongside that which is about the experiences of those people in your business. And so we do a lot of work in partnership with a brilliant organisation called Great With Talent and they run inclusion surveys for companies, so specifically focused on the experience of different people within a company. And the thing that I love about working with Great With Talent is that it really gives you the opportunity to get under the skin of an organisation and to understand how your people’s experiences… because if you look at as a whole of companies scores around, you know how included you feel at work, the chances are, if they are a typical business or organisation working in the UK, they’re likely to be slightly homogenous in some areas. So you’re likely to see probably a disproportionate number of white people, you’re likely to see probably a few more men than women, depending on which sector you’re in. If you’re in the tech sector, it’s gonna be a lot more men than women. And you’re probably likely to see a lot more straight people than people who are part of the LGBT community, etc, etc. So, seeing as a whole, the chorus voice, you’ve got to understand that that’s going to be a voice of majority, but the real beauty of getting to grips with the data is that you can compare the experience of your underrepresented groups, and really start to understand whether there are any challenges within your business. And that experiential piece is really crucial. And I think the other thing that I would say that I always say to my clients is you have to start the conversation with your people as well. And I don’t just mean sending out an email saying we’re now focusing on diversity and inclusion. I mean, actually take you. Yeah, actually equip your people to have meaningful discussions with their teams, about how they feel about work, because you can’t separate diversity and inclusion out as something different. It’s, it’s part of your culture, and it should be part of everything you do in your business.
James Nathan 29:41 Well, you spoke there about tech business being you know, dominantly, white, predominately male, totally straight. I think back to uni, and the guys who are in the engineering faculty, there are about 140 of them. Two of them are women. You know, when you’ve got a an education system, you know, we’re talking A long time ago. But, you know, when it’s that bias, what is that sort of skewed? I guess at the starting point? It’s very natural that you know, 30 years on that the workforce is going to look the way it is. Is that a bad thing now?
Trish Driver 30:16 Well, I probably would say, yes. I think we, I think, and this is kind of comes sort of almost full circle to the beginning of our conversation. I do this because I think business has the opportunity to really influence wider culture and society, and I’m a parent of two daughters. And I see how even at the ages of four and eight, they’re starting to absorb cues about what’s expected of them from society as a whole. And so my older daughter came home from school, I think when she was in our first week of reception and said, oh, yeah, computers are for boys, which you can imagine my head exploded. And I think it’s, you know, we have to start kind of breaking down this stuff, those stereotypes really early on with kids, because they absorb. They’re like little sponges they absorb so much. But I think that the responsibility that we have as businesses is not just to accept that okay, well, you know, only this percentage of engineers are women. So that’s just the way it is. We’re just going to accept that because otherwise nothing’s going to change. So where you see really great things happening are where groups of businesses get together and put aside all of that competition stuff and start thinking about how can we change these perceptions going forward? So I worked when I was in house with one of our, with one of the tech organisations that I’ve worked with, I worked on a great project with the Department of Culture, Media and Sport about how do we encourage more young women into tech apprenticeships, and a lot of that comes back to you need to show them this is a career opportunity for them. You need to show them that actually tech doesn’t mean you know, brown polyester suits in a in a basement somewhere. It’s the stuff that’s in the pockets or handbags of their parents. You know, the phones and the tablets and the technology, and explain to them if you, you know, if you want these tools to work for you in the future, you need to be part of designing them. And so kind of, and giving them those role models. So there’s some there’s some incredible, incredible women working in tech. And so I love Dr. Sue Black, who does so much work in evangelising about tech and has a fantastic role model and is now a professor of computer science at Durham University. And she’s an incredible role model. She’s literally living the role model dream kind of showing these young women and inspiring them into tech, which I think is fantastic. But we have to… it’s one of those things that isn’t going to happen overnight. We have to keep chipping away at it but if we all take the attitude of well, this is the talent pool and we just accept that that’s how it is then we’re never going to change anything.
James Nathan 32:50 Well that’s a perfect spot to finish our conversation. Trish. I really really enjoyed this and I was about to get on a very high horse…. my daughter’s 11 and she would stand people and point at them and shout at them if they started suggesting that she could only do something because she’s a girl. She would have them. Trish, please leave us with your one thought, your one big thing, your golden nugget, something that people could do in their businesses today to make them better for today and better for the years to come. What would that be?
Trish Driver 33:22 I think for me, it’s all about starting the conversation, James. I think getting outside of our comfort zones, talking to people who maybe aren’t the kind of people that we normally speak to and building those relationships. And that’s what we can do on an individual level. But from a business level, think about how you can create an environment where it’s safe for people to be themselves at work. And they feel not just, not just kind of accepted, but I think celebrated for the difference that they bring to the workplace because for me, that is that’s the biggest impact that we can have.
James Nathan 33:55 Fabulous. Trish, thank you so so much.
Trish Driver 33:58 Thank you, James.